Do we need "the plebeians are idiots" laws?

aneeshm

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The current crisis crisis has led me to ask this question - do people need laws protecting them from their own stupidity?

And by "people", I mean not merely those who took out mortgages they couldn't hope to pay, but also the entire chain of people who made that possible - from the regulatory authorities who caved to sentiment and removed to 12:1 leverage cap, to the investment banks' managements who leveraged themselves into an impossible situation, to the people who engineered the financial instruments which concealed the risk inherent to these investments, to the mortgage salesman who offered NINA loans to people who he knew couldn't pay them back so that he could get his commission. In the free-market economy, we are all plebeians.

Other examples of these laws are those against predatory lending, which do not allow interest rates to be above a certain limit. The reason these laws were necessary in India was because many moneylenders were offering loans to peasants at ridiculously high interest rates (40%, 60%, 80% per annum were all normal in the feudal time, before land reforms), thus forcing that man into a debt spiral to the death. The stupid person in this example is, of course, the peasant, who would take a loan for a non-productive purpose without properly understanding how much it would take to pay it back. Had he been a perfectly rational actor, as classical economics assumes, then he wouldn't have taken than loan. But he isn't a perfectly rational actor and is, like most of the population, dumb, and completely incapable of assessing the consequences for his life of that action.

In fact, as one examines different sectors of the economy, one is unwillingly forced into the conclusion that most actors in the market are perversely irrational, and in the majority of cases take decisions which are massively detrimental to their self-interest. It is at this point where classical economics breaks down - in the sense that one of its assumptions no longer holds.

One way we can deal with this is by using the evolutionary approach - if a man makes a stupid decision, well, too bad, it's his problem. An economic version of the survival of the fittest. Rationality will be introduced in the system by means of the extremely painful correction it metes out to those who take decisions which are not rational. Each generation will learn from the mistakes of the previous one, and if it doesn't, it will pay the price.

However, this ignores the fact that collective and cultural memory is finite, and a lesson learned by one generation is ofter forgotten within one or two more generations.





So I repeat the question:

Do people need laws protecting them from their own stupidity?
 
Depends on the laws and degree of inconvenience.

Mandatory seatbelts? Definitely. Prohibition of alcohol? Not so much.
 
Another example is the prohibition of certain types of lotteries. It is a tax on the innumerate. The reason it is outlawed in India is because it assumes gigantic proportions among the lower classes, and becomes a social problem. There have been cases of a large number of lower-class people spending huge amounts of money on lottery tickets, going to the extent of depleting their (already meagre) saving, sometimes even resorting to robbing their family or relatives, and in extreme cases, crime, to feed their habit.
 
Yeah, because those laws have worked so well in the past at reigning in out of control governments.

You're not thinking about the slippery slope consequences. Do you really want the government to define "idiocy". Which government? Liberal? Conservative? What if they keep changing the definition?

Finally, the majority of actors made the right decisions and acted responsible. It was the minority of actors who were rotten apples that spoiled the bunch.

A better solution would be to engage in a program to increase financial literacy rates and knowledge.
 
Yes, we all need a benevolent dictator taking care of us.

That's not exactly what I meant. In fact, that's not at all what I meant. Even democracies have their self-interest in mind when they try to contain their own stupidity.

A system akin to "one crisis per law". That is, each crisis teaches us some lessons about different types of stupidity among the masses, be they the rich or the poor, and what could have been done to prevent it.

This crisis, for example, taught us that there should be a ceiling on leverage ratios. It also taught us that the incentive structures for selling mortgages were flawed, and how to correct the flaws. So with this in mind, we make laws setting an upper limit on the leverage ratio, and so on.


Galling as this sort of intervention seems to a die-hard free-marketer like me, it seems that it is necessary. I'm perfectly fine with the other option, too - survival of the fittest, let the market purge the rest, and all that, but I'm afraid that in a democracy which does not set ironclad constitutional limits on the government's ability to bail out the electorally powerful, it is only the second option which is viable. Ideally, of course, we would let the market unleash massive pain upon those who deserve it. But as long as those who deserve it have lots of votes, they'll do anything they can to escape their much-deserved punishment. Thus the second, compromise option.
 
The OP keeps going on about the "Free Market" as if it exists. It does not. It is an aspiration for some and a myth for others. No advanced economy has ever existed without restrictions on trade, preferential taxes, subsidies for home-produced products or tariffs on imported goods. It's Never-never land and all the wishing in the world will never make it happen.:rolleyes:
 
The current crisis crisis has led me to ask this question - do people need laws protecting them from their own stupidity?

And by "people", I mean not merely those who took out mortgages they couldn't hope to pay, but also the entire chain of people who made that possible - from the regulatory authorities who caved to sentiment and removed to 12:1 leverage cap, to the investment banks' managements who leveraged themselves into an impossible situation, to the people who engineered the financial instruments which concealed the risk inherent to these investments, to the mortgage salesman who offered NINA loans to people who he knew couldn't pay them back so that he could get his commission. In the free-market economy, we are all plebeians.

Other examples of these laws are those against predatory lending, which do not allow interest rates to be above a certain limit. The reason these laws were necessary in India was because many moneylenders were offering loans to peasants at ridiculously high interest rates (40%, 60%, 80% per annum were all normal in the feudal time, before land reforms), thus forcing that man into a debt spiral to the death. The stupid person in this example is, of course, the peasant, who would take a loan for a non-productive purpose without properly understanding how much it would take to pay it back. Had he been a perfectly rational actor, as classical economics assumes, then he wouldn't have taken than loan. But he isn't a perfectly rational actor and is, like most of the population, dumb, and completely incapable of assessing the consequences for his life of that action.

In fact, as one examines different sectors of the economy, one is unwillingly forced into the conclusion that most actors in the market are perversely irrational, and in the majority of cases take decisions which are massively detrimental to their self-interest. It is at this point where classical economics breaks down - in the sense that one of its assumptions no longer holds.

One way we can deal with this is by using the evolutionary approach - if a man makes a stupid decision, well, too bad, it's his problem. An economic version of the survival of the fittest. Rationality will be introduced in the system by means of the extremely painful correction it metes out to those who take decisions which are not rational. Each generation will learn from the mistakes of the previous one, and if it doesn't, it will pay the price.

However, this ignores the fact that collective and cultural memory is finite, and a lesson learned by one generation is ofter forgotten within one or two more generations.

So I repeat the question:

Do people need laws protecting them from their own stupidity?

Why do you hate freedom?

I'd rather be poor, despondent and free than rich successful and on a government leash.
 
It should defiantaly be legal for people to take loans they can't afford. That's called freedom.

I agree with that evolutionary approach, if you make a financially bad desicion it's your own problem and nobody else's.
 
It should defiantaly be legal for people to take loans they can't afford. That's called freedom.

I just knew you would ride that donkey to the bitter end. :lol:

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"......
 
Sometimes.
It should defiantaly be legal for people to take loans they can't afford. That's called freedom

I do not agree with this. People should not be allowed to get loan if they can't afford. Those who let them get the loan and then let us all in this economic crisis should be punished.

Freedom is not absolute!
 
I just knew you would ride that donkey to the bitter end. :lol:

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"......

Freedom isn't just a word I utter like clockwork in drug threads man.

I believe that the government should provide people with as much protection from evildoers, educational oppertunities, and compassionate health care as they can.

But ultimatly I also think that if you piss away your money it's your problem.
 
Freedom isn't just a word I utter like clockwork in drug threads man.

I believe that the government should provide people with as much protection from evildoers, educational oppertunities, and compassionate health care as they can.

But ultimatly I also think that if you piss away your money it's your problem.

And what if the mortgage company told you that you were qualified to buy a house that you shouldnt have?

You see, the buyers arent the only ones at fault here. I do agree they bear the majority of the responsibility, BUT, if you have a loan officer (i.e. salesman) telling you that you qualify for a 300k loan when you should only be qualified for a 150k loan, doesnt the mortgage company share in the guilt of giving you a 250k loan to buy a house you really couldnt afford?
 
And what if the mortgage company told you that you were qualified to buy a house that you shouldnt have?

You see, the buyers arent the only ones at fault here. I do agree they bear the majority of the responsibility, BUT, if you have a loan officer (i.e. salesman) telling you that you qualify for a 300k loan when you should only be qualified for a 150k loan, doesnt the mortgage company share in the guilt of giving you a 250k loan to buy a house you really couldnt afford?

It looks like you know more about the banking industry than I do. It sliped my mind that salesmen can be lying and manipulative. I suppose I'm now stanceless on this issue because now I don't know how the government should prevent manipulation by the banks without being intrusive.
 
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