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Do you accept Vassals (and if so why)?

Discussion in 'Strategy and tips' started by Koshling, Oct 20, 2011.

  1. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Currently I have an AI offering to Vassal to me. He's friendly and not very powerful (which of course is why he is offering).

    In gneral I can't see any reason to accept Vassals - all they do is force you into wars - anyone have an opinion as to why you'd ever accept a vassal (except to end a war maybe)?
     
  2. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    How do Vassals force you into wars?
    I thought it was the opposite way, that you force your vassal to do the same wars you do.
     
  3. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Someone attacks your vassal you are at war.
     
  4. Hankc

    Hankc Warlord

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    Their land area and population count at least partially towards domination victory, don't they? Also, they might have a resource you don't, so you can force them to supply you.
     
  5. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    I play with domination off so that part is not ineresting to me as it happens, but the resource reason is reasonable (though typically the small guys tend not to have unique resources so its normally not the case)
     
  6. EldrinFal

    EldrinFal King

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    What I've seen is that someone I've pounded into a spec of a nation becomes a vassal of another big nation, and then suddenly I'm at war with that other big nation and any other vassals he has. That is always the worst case scenario.

    As for accepting vassals, the only time I really do that now is when I want to end a war quickly, but can't follow through to obliterate him completely (either because resources are running low, my people are angry, or I have another war to fight).

    There tends to not really be a huge benefit though that I've seen (other than the vassal being your gimp). Maybe trade is better??
     
  7. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    Ah, so the AI does not consider the connection when it checks if it wants a war?
     
  8. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Emperor

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    Can you make AI Civs evaluate the lead nation before declaring war on a Vassal to make Vassalage better overall Koshling?

    Cheers
     
  9. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    I think it checks, but it doesn't necessarily stop it if it hates your vassal. It's just that I don't really see an upside to (most) vassals so I pretty much never accept them.
     
  10. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    It can go on the wish list ;-) I think I'd like to see a change to the vassalage mechanics slightly first to make them worth having before I worry too much about their second order effects though. For example a tax the vassal pays to its over-civ or something (though more gold is not what we need right now!)
     
  11. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    Ok, then the upsides need to be improved or the downsides reduced (I think there is some city maintenance cost increase associated with taking a vassal).
     
  12. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    I think you can force your vassal to give you gold per turn in addition to resources.
     
  13. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Emperor

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    Any "Forcing" of giving resources or gold can result in a breakaway with war ensuing between master and vassal.

    With the Goods system it might be possible for the vassals goods to spread to the masters cities via trade routes too?
    If so that wouldn't be an overpowered benefit while still very possibly making it worthwhile.

    Cheers
     
  14. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    That's a good idea. Would need some code support but shouldn't be rocket science.
     
  15. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Due to the fact that vassalage becomes the escape for my enemies, leading to a huge war with a bigger opponent than I'm usually prepared for, a domino effect that ends up making a war with anyone, ultimately, a war with the rest of the world if you continue to be successful, I find cause for me to shut off the vassalage option in all games I play.

    I like a lot of the elements about it from an economic and diplomatic complexity level, but due to this last ditch vassalage defense method all nations will employ when down to their last city, its entirely unfun to have it on at all.

    Now... if a nation could not be made a vassal of another nation when at war except perhaps to the nation it is at war WITH, we may have a halfway decent system to start working with.
     
  16. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    I'd say the important thing here is how the AI behaves.
    The one taking on the vassal should only be allowed to do that if he would be able to declare war on you at that moment and he should consider it as a war declaration and therefore only do it if he was close to starting a war with you anyway.
    It should also be treated as a declaration of war in its diplomacy effect (not sure how it is currently treated).
     
  17. little_cyclone

    little_cyclone Loyal Civ4 & C2C mod player

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    I accept vassals
    1) if they're on my border it makes for some breathing room provided someone on the other side of said vassal declares war on me, ala Warsaw Pact
    2) if they're farther away, I can use the vassal cities as launching points for spies/missionaries/corporations to their neighbors
    3) I use Domination/Conquest alot and vassal'ing a nation is often alot less time and energy consuming then trying to completely extinguish a nation
    4) If we're at war, chances are if I don't accept the vassal's offer, he'll just go to someone else to protect him and then I'll have to fight them as well.. :rolleyes:
    5) If the vassal is small enough and I'm sufficiently larger then they are, after awhile sometimes they offer to completely "join" my nation, at which point they cease to exist, I take complete control of their cities, expanding my nation, or I can just abandon the cities if they've been more of a thorn in my side :king:
    6) The previously stated Resources and Cash.
     
  18. Questdog

    Questdog Prince

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    I thought that was fixed in a BTS patch.

    I don't understand why the vassalage does not just work like this: You now own the country. All the cities are just as if they were yours. The country retains its ethnicity, but otherwise is just an extension of your country.
     
  19. little_cyclone

    little_cyclone Loyal Civ4 & C2C mod player

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    If you actually physically take over a city from a nation (without completely killing off the entire nation) you'll see that it does exactly as you describe, while the city is yours, the previous owners are represented as a percentage of the cities overall ethnicity.
     
  20. EldrinFal

    EldrinFal King

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    Isn't there a surrender option of this kind? Capitulation? I thought there was.

    Then again it basically means the AI loses the game.

    Perhaps to make it more worthwhile in the long run or the future, the nature of the relationship could be dependent on a Civic. If using Feudalism or Vassalage, or something of that nature, then the Vassal would be required to provide troops. Like 50% of its cities would need to make units and hand them over to the "Lord." If the Civics were more Capitalistic, then it would be a Commerce or Gold or Trade Caravans in tribute each turn, or with some earlier Civics it could mean Slaves... etc.
     

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