Do you Always take Rationalism?

[Marshall Thomas]

Is taking the rationalism social policy almost always a "no-brainer?"

If not, when is it advisable to not take this policy?

Thanks in advance

 

[Bad Wolf]

The opener is ABSOLUTELY a no-brainer for any victory condition, especially now that it's compatible with Piety. You probably also want Secularism as well. The rest are totally optional - I typically only fill out the Rationalism tree if I'm going for a spaceship.

 

[Byzantine Bomb]

I never take it and can still win a science victory on Prince.

 

[whyidie]

Up to Emperor I find I can skip it. Haven't tried without it on higher levels.

 

[Gort]

I never take it and can still win a science victory on Prince.

You can probably win a science victory on Prince while taking no policies at all.

 

[x2Madda]

Yeah Prince difficulty isn't exactly a good measure of "what works & what doesn't".
Either try your tactics in Multiplayer (online) or Diety setting, things are a lot different there.

It is a no brainer to open the tree but finishing it is optional although given how Science is Queen (and population is King) is there ever a reason not to want more science?

 

[Marshall Thomas]

I should have added in my first post that I meant on Emperor or Immortal difficulty. I play a hybrid Emperor/Immortal difficulty that I modded.

 

[Moriarte]

For domination victories, exploration (seas) and commerce (land) are better. Up to deity. With culture, science and diplo, yes - rationalism is a no brainer.

 

[Greizer85]

Even though you can win space on Prince without Rati, you can win faster if you do take it. Every single time on every single difficulty you should take at least the opener and Secularism. Imo the game would be better if the whole tree were removed and not replaced with anything. That way you could fill out more of the available Policy trees and there'd be more choice involved. Ofc they should also balance the remaining trees properly. Exploration and Honor need super-buffs and Piety and Lib could use some minor ones.

 

[headcase]

Imo the game would be better if the whole tree were removed and not replaced with anything. That way you could fill out more of the available Policy trees and there'd be more choice involved.

I'd nerf it strongly since science is so versatile. It would still be an option, but in most cases other branches would be much more lucrative.

 

[Makavcio]

Opener, bonus for specialists, bonus for universities and bonus for trade posts. These things are a must-have in all games. Bonus for GS generation isn't that important, but you must get it along the way. Finishing rationalism is purely optional and usually a waste since ideologies.

 

[DarthSheldonPhD]

It's usually the best option, but I can't help but play devil's advocate sometimes

Rationalism was nerfed when BNW came out. It no longer has a happiness policy, and previously added 2.1 happy/city. Wouldn't be such a big deal, but this compounds with other sources of happiness being nerfed (second and third happiness buildings now give 2 instead of 3 and 4 respectively, CB was cut in half in religion). Further compounding the issue is the increased penalties of unhappiness (combat penalties starting at -1 instead of -10, rebels at -10 instead of -20). This is particularly noticeable in domination games, and for domination games I find it almost as effective to pair tradition with patronage, commerce or exploration, or 2 out of the three.

Of course, this argument loses merit when you consider that the happiness problem is usually all but solved when ideologies come into play, particularly Order (side note: Autocracy just needs some major happiness tenets to fix it), and Rationalism gets you to ideologies quicker...

 

[ense7en]

Nope.

It's probably optimal if you are gunning for best possible times, but i don't mind changing it up sometimes and not taking Rationalism.

 

[holywar]

I never take rationalism unless I'm going SV.

 

[Barghaest]

Of course, this argument loses merit when you consider that the happiness problem is usually all but solved when ideologies come into play, particularly Order (side note: Autocracy just needs some major happiness tenets to fix it), and Rationalism gets you to ideologies quicker...

Autocracy gives as much if not more Happiness than both of the others...
-5 (+1 if on a river) happiness per city with Freedom (and half unhappiness from specialists)
-8 (+1 if on a river & +1 if next to mountain) with Order
-9 (+3 if annexed) with Autocracy

And all of this is not including base happiness buildings....

 

[Stellarnight]

I play on Emperor and yes i have won games without rationalism but Rationalism makes it easier simply because Science is at the heart of every victory condition.
Now the question is rather should one finish the tree or not?

Personally i will always at least open secularism if i am not pursuing a SV. Usually ideology comes into play by the time you get your next policy. If i am going for SV then, yes i will finish the tree. The free tech comes in very useful.

 

[MKDELTA3]

I tend to take at least the opener and secularism. It's excelent policy shopping. Kind of like Tradition -> Legalism is in the early game.

 

[Autoclave]

On Prince, unless you are playing spain spawned next to GBR, you will get to an ideology sooner than you will be able to complete rationalism, and ideologies are more powerful than rationalism.

 

[MKDELTA3]

On Prince, unless you are playing spain spawned next to GBR, you will get to an ideology sooner than you will be able to complete rationalism, and ideologies are more powerful than rationalism.

Rationalism is still mega good to cherry pick from if/when you burn Great Writers, get ideology wonders and free policies from world congress. I like to go to my level 3 tenet of choice ASAP and then go back and take the good policies from Rationalism from Exploration/Commerce/Aesthetics depending on what I am going to do before filling out rest of the ideology.

 

[crusader01]

Its weird but i have never finish rationalism, i always open it, and its enough .