Do you attempt religions on higher difficulties, or just plant them for faith.

[fyar]

In my experience, if you take Religious Texts, and spread just to your own 4-city tradition empire, assuming that your cities are nice and compact, you'll be able to hold your religion in those 4 cities even on Deity. The AI sends their missionary spam first to civs that have not founded a religion (and of course to city-states) to avoid the "stop sending missionaries to me" diplomatic penalty. Of course, if the AI hates you anyway (you're warmongering, your army is the pits, or you denounced them), then all bets are off, and expect a missionary spam.

On Deity, I find that this is good enough to hold me over until the industrial era, which is the best time to start spreading my religion with great prophets. Of course, by then you'll need prophets, as your missionaries will have negligible effect and will cost too much anyway. But that's the point: the missionaries cost too much for the AI also, and so their missionary spam will have run out of steam. Meanwhile, they've exhausted several great prophets in their own religious battles, and are now on their 5th or 6th prophets, which also cost a lot of faith. On the other hand, you saved your 3rd and 4th prophets for this purpose, so you can convert 8 cities relatively cheaply.

Granted, since it's now the industrial era, this has to be weighed against saving your faith for great engineer/scientist or some other great person.

 

[beetle]

I used my first GP to found a religion, second to try and bring it back to life (my capital had been flipped to AIs rel!).

As fyar explained in detail, you essentially wasted your 2nd GPr (not the 1st one). Religions that are not enhanced don't seem to exert the normal pressure, you do not have an enhancer, and you cannot buy inquisitors. 1st GPr to found. 2nd GPr to enhance. Always.

Usually, I think you want to Enhance before spending faith elsewhere; but if you want to spread early, do so with missionaries not GPr. Early missionaries are cheap and spreading to your own cities, and maybe even a CS without a religion, should be done with missionaries in the early game. Save your GPr buys for uses where missionaries cannot do the job.

My cities were in a line so all far more exposed to AI cities than each other.

You should be okay so long as (1) it is ten hexes or less between any three cities; and (2) you get them all converted at the same time (at some point, can be mid game).

I feel I'd have been better off going for a food/culture pantheon and planting the prophets.

Nah, the panic burn of your 2nd GPr was the problem. Plus, would you have gotten a GPr at all if you had not picked a faith pantheon?

Granted, since it's now the industrial era, this has to be weighed against saving your faith for great engineer/scientist or some other great person.

I agree with all your advise for Zulose. My only comment is for the line above to note that your 3rd and 4th GPr are 500 and 800 faith. Even with other GP unlocked, GPr are low opportunity cost!

 

[Browd]

Religions that are not enhanced don't seem to exert the normal pressure, you do not have an enhancer, and you cannot buy inquisitors.

The bolded portion is not accurate. Unless you have taken the Religious Texts enhancer, an unenhanced religion will exert the same pressure as an enhanced religion (6 pressure per city, at Standard speed). Other boosts to religious pressure/spread speed (e.g., Grand Temple, Arabian trade routes, Underground Sect, World Religion) apply the same, whether or not the religion is enhanced.

 

[beetle]

^^ Thanks for that correction Browd. My own experience is that my religion, even without competition, hardly every spreads outside the Holy City on its own. Until I enhance that is. But that is no doubt just the normal spread mechanics taking its sweet time!

 

[Browd]

And they do take a long time to have effect -- like compound interest, patience is a necessity.

 

[Chum]

^^ Thanks for that correction Browd. My own experience is that my religion, even without competition, hardly every spreads outside the Holy City on its own. Until I enhance that is. But that is no doubt just the normal spread mechanics taking its sweet time!

It's a function of population, really. Since Tall is the most prevalent way people play this game now, you have a situation where cities grow very large very quickly in the early game, and religion doesn't really have a chance to catch up. Since religion is simply a function of having more than half of your citizens in any given city following your religion, if you're up to pop 5 or 6 in your expansions before your religion takes hold in your capital (not hard to do playing tall Tradition), it's going to be a long while before the 6(9) pressure your capital exerts on all of them for them to flip 3 or 4 citizens to your religion.

I've noticed religion is FAR easier to get going in my wide games. I've been playing a lot of Acken's mod lately, which makes liberty much more viable due to longer games and a buffed tree, and I have a usual strategy - settle, then I really keep cities at 2 or MAYBE 3 pop for a really long time. I will work a food tile and a mine or stable, and it's a good long while before happiness and improvements really get going in order to get the population to start growing. But the side effect of this is that the 6(9) pressure from your capital has no issues converting 2 or 3 population in fairly short order, and as soon as the first city flips, it's double the pressure on the rest. It's very easy to get a 6-10 city liberty empire with a solid religion going very fast, and it's self sustaining if you're settling your cities geographically solid. Even normal religion spamming civs like the Maya and Ethopia have a really hard time passively pressuring your cities when all of yours are rocking 30-50 pressure due to your own internal pressure.

 

[danaphanous]

This is the beauty of internal trade routes and Grand Temple.

If you don't intend to spread your religion but want it to propagate naturally through your empire and have poor faith. (Can happen if you pick the non-faith choices) An option other then buying a missionary or two is to always have a food route running from your holy city out to another city or from another city to your holy city. Alternate the cities so that extra pressure from the trade route spreads your religion all around. It's a little slower but since you get an early 2 trade routes it can work really well while simultaneously growing your cities pretty fast. Also taking religious texts helps. This can be enough to flip that 2nd city and get the conversion ball rolling through your empire without missionaries, however, I've never seen a case where it wasn't faster to make one missionary after enhancing. Don't forget about trade routes though! They work!

Also, quickly build your temples and build Grand Temple Early. It doubles the pressure from your holy city which will definitely get the job done.

This slow trade route/Grand Temple strategy can work very well if you have other things you wish to spend your faith on such as allowing foreign religions in for a spell and buying the AI's religious buildings, or buying military through the Holy Warriors perk. Anticipate later needing to flip a city or two back to your religion but this is easy with the 3rd cheap prophet and it is often beneficial, esp. on high-level games, to let the AI spread their religion a bit and get their perks for a while.

My Byzantines/Immortal thread this worked out wonderfully for me. My religion spread to nearby cities and started rapidly overtaking the entire wide empire without any missionaries. Meanwhile my neighbor's sweet pagoda, cathedral, and science building buying faith spread to my southern cities and I bought both of our stuff. I now have about 30 religious buildings under my belt and massive faith and culture output.

 

[Chum]

First of all, if you're within 10 tiles of the capital, the internal trade routes don't do anything for spread. The city has passive pressure on everything within 10(13 with the appropriate belief), and since I'm assuming you're not settling your 3 expos further away than that, trade routes do absolutely nothing for spread to your own cities.

Second of all, the grand temple is a giant waste. You need early hammers in this game, and temples are hammer and maintenance expensive. You want to be building stables, markets, stoneworks, granaries, etc, and you have limited gold for maintenance. 2 gpt for 2 faith with all the early game hammers that go into it is pretty expensive for a marginal faith boost. In a typical expo going tall, you're going to get the monument free, you're going to maybe build a granary and then a library. The last city will probably just be library. You still need to build caravans/cargos, and then all of the above buildings and you want to build temples at Philosophy? I don't see that being a good trade in 90% of games. There just isn't room for all of that in a Tradition setting, by the time you're ready to build temples, you've just reached universities and then science is obviously more important. By the time you get those built, you're at metal casting and you need workshops.

Temples make sense like 1 game out of 10, where you have something like God of the Sea or Sun God and you want to keep your religion. Otherwise, it's just a noob trap that takes your early gold and early hammers and doesn't give you much benefit.

 

[fyar]

I find it interesting that there've been numerous suggestions to build your Grand Temple early, because I hardly ever build one early. Temples just aren't high on the priority list for me. Especially in my expansion cities, I first need a monument, granary, library, workshop, university, etc etc. Even if I'm emphasizing a strong religion game. My reasoning is that if I'm emphasizing religion, I either already had strong faith production to get an early religion (a good faith pantheon, religious city-states, Ethiopia, e.g.) and the +8 faith I get from 4 temples isn't actually all that game-changing.

Usually the Grand Temple is something I build late in the game when I've got no other higher priorities. By then the double religious pressure is of little consequence though.

When some of you say "build Grand Temple early" I assume that means medieval or Renaissance. Does that mean you prioritize temples in your expansions before one of the buildings I mentioned?

 

[beetle]

This is the beauty of internal trade routes and Grand Temple.

Note that trade routes do not generate pressure on cities that are ten hexes or closer.

But if your cities are all in a line, sending a trade routes between the two cities at each end will net you as much internal pressure as if your cities were arranged as a regularish quadrilateral.

 

[fyar]

Well I guess Chum posted just before me against what I was asking about. I guess I feel the same way as Chum in most games, but I was curious how other players make it work.

My Byzantines/Immortal thread this worked out wonderfully for me. My religion spread to nearby cities and started rapidly overtaking the entire wide empire without any missionaries. Meanwhile my neighbor's sweet pagoda, cathedral, and science building buying faith spread to my southern cities and I bought both of our stuff. I now have about 30 religious buildings under my belt and massive faith and culture output.

I hope you went down Piety and claimed Sacred Sites as your Reformation belief, then! +60 tourism at that early stage will snowball into a comfortable cultural victory if you want to play for that.

 

[danaphanous]

Note that trade routes do not generate pressure on cities that are ten hexes or closer.

But if your cities are all in a line, sending a trade routes between the two cities at each end will net you as much internal pressure as if your cities were arranged as a regularish quadrilateral.

It's really a shame that they don't for all the tall-empire people. I'm inevitably going wide though so there are usually a few route choices that generate internal pressure. You can also send to a CS but the AI usually flips it with a GP even if you succeed in spreading your religion there so the hit in gold and science is hardly worth it.

Usually the Grand Temple is something I build late in the game when I've got no other higher priorities. By then the double religious pressure is of little consequence though.

When some of you say "build Grand Temple early" I assume that means medieval or Renaissance. Does that mean you prioritize temples in your expansions before one of the buildings I mentioned?

Nope, it is lower priority then all the buildings you mentioned on most games, but religious game play differently. I'm not claiming it's optimal, but it is an alternate strategy. All that early faith really helps you make something of your religion. If you are hitting universities...etc phase before getting to temples that's your problem you want this done by universities.

I take it you don't save your gold and buy buildings or are expanding very wide?

I have trouble building grand temple on wide expansionist games but it is pretty easy to get and a good choice on a smaller religious game. Each temple gives +2 faith. Grand temple gives another 8 and double pressure. Plus if you ended up with the +2 happiness from temples it can be even better. Grand temple is far better early as it passively spreads your religion much more effectively and gives a lot of extra faith to spend when buildings/missionaries are cheap. Don't hurt yourself going for it, but it should definitely be a priority if you want to use your religion well early game. Try a tall piety game and you'll see how easy it is to get with half-cost shrines/temples. They are so quick to build and with piety the temple is like a second market so it simultaneously boosts your economy. Try piety with the happiness from temples belief. They are so good fast in fact, I sometimes end up building shrine --> temple and just buy the cheap monument and granary. It only costs around 600 gold to do and getting that culture and growth earlier is better if I'm still settling around the same time.

 

[fyar]

danaphanous, I think the strategy you're suggesting is considered "sub-optimal" by a lot of the so-called experts. I think these are the reasons:
1. To get the production boost for shrines/temples by opening Piety... well, Piety just is not as strong at that early point of the game. It's usually better to finish Tradition or Liberty than to start taking policies from Piety, and by the time you finish Tradition/Liberty it's almost the Renaissance.
2. Once you get Philosophy, it's usually a beeline for Education. Around that time, your capital is working on the National College, and your expos are still working on the granaries, caravans/cargo ships, possibly a market, possibly the Oracle. By the time they finish those things, you've discovered Education and universities are the priority. By the time universities finish, you've discovered Metal Casting and it's on to workshops. By the time those are done, it's just about the Renaissance.

That said, I think your strategy sounds like fun, and would at least be a change of pace from the way I'd been playing. I might try it in one of my next games... maybe on Immortal.

 

[danaphanous]

I'm aware, I've played optimal games, but personally I like to experiment on immortal level more as it makes each game a bit more varied. I play a lot of suboptimal strategies according to the "experts" But I do what seems fun to me and they work on pretty hard levels. Maybe not the way to go on Deity though, but everything I suggest works well and wins the game handily on immortal. Note you don't have to open piety to do this. Half-cost shrines and temples are nice, but you could also just buy them if you focus on trade routes and gold. It just makes it easier to be getting to grand temple and the 25% gold boost from temples helps to make up for their cost. But the real reason for opening piety is not half-price buildings, it's all the other perks it gives to a religious game allowing you to use that investment more effectively. I find piety more useful than commerce tree for instance due to certain synergies with the way I play.

You are classifying "suboptimal" by win time I suppose? I would argue some of my strategies build a better empire base then the optimal ones and if the game played out longer I would win over the optimal players. I kinda resent the heavy nerfs they gave to going too wide as I don't think they are that accurate so I push the envelope on cities just to spite the mechanic.

I will admit I'm rarely getting to grand temple unless I'm playing a religious strategy. Now, to break out of the box a bit, try a liberty/piety mix game with at least one religious building. The high culture output of religious buildings and extra happiness will help to make up for mixing into two trees early and going wide. Sure you get the finisher boost late but the liberty finisher is not as important and can be put off. All the culture/happiness from the solid religion will help your wide empire grow taller and keep up in science. As long as you don't sprawl too much your science will be just as good if not better than 4-city tradition game though it matures slower (hence a slower finish time on SV). It's one of my favorite strategies and the AI can't seem to compete with it on immortal. Great fun! Keep in mind the fact that you have 7+ powerful cities late-game gives you great advantages over smaller empires and it feels more satisfying to me. Production being the main one. You can't be beat on international projects, can support a larger military, and build one faster as well. If you worry about falling behind on science you might claim Glory of God or Jesuit Education as your reformation. Your massive faith from the religious buildings and extra temples/grand temple late game will translate into instant buys of all the new science buildings as you tech them or lots of extra great people and the game has changed where buying great people with faith doesn't affect the pool so they really are "free" now I believe. That's at least 3-4 extra scientists to catch up late-game and engineers. It does quite well.

You should be able to win a wide SV between 1850-1900 easy. not a game-breaking time but nothing the AI can keep up with on Immortal. It's a winning time on Deity too but I suspect the AI will ruthlessly attack you all game because this strategy makes your score very high and they resent expansionism. There would be many wars.

 

[beetle]

danaphanous, I think the strategy you're suggesting is considered "sub-optimal" by a lot of the so-called experts.

If you only have one pick between closing out your starter tree and opening Rationalism, opening Piety seems like a strong choice to me. That saves a lot of hammers!

I always try to build Grand Temple mostly for the extra fpt boost. If you don't catch Mosques, the GT on its own is worth between a quarter and half your fpt! That is an extra GP, maybe two.

Also, if I have EIC and GT in a coastal city, I can run all my trades from there and never worry about it flipping. Otherwise, keeping the EIC city in the fold will need a GPr use or two over the course of a game.

 

[fyar]

I'm aware, I've played optimal games, but personally I like to experiment on immortal level more as it makes each game a bit more varied. I play a lot of suboptimal strategies according to the "experts" But I do what seems fun to me and they work on pretty hard levels. Maybe not the way to go on Deity though, but everything I suggest works well and wins the game handily on immortal. Note you don't have to open piety to do this. Half-cost shrines and temples are help, but you could also just buy them if you focus on trade routes and gold. It just makes it easier to be getting to grand temple and the 25% gold boost from temples helps to make up for their cost. You are classifying "suboptimal" by win time I suppose? I would argue some of my strategies build a better empire base then the optimal ones and if the game played out longer I would win over the optimal players. I kinda resent the heavy nerfs they gave to going too wide as I don't think they are that accurate so I push the envelope on cities just to spite the mechanic.

I will admit I'm rarely getting to grand temple unless I'm playing a religious strategy. Now, to break out of the box a bit, try a liberty/piety mix game with at least one religious building. The high culture output of religious buildings and extra happiness will help to make up for mixing into two trees early and going wide. Sure you get the finisher boost late but the liberty finisher is not as important and can be put off. All the culture/happiness from the solid religion will help your wide empire grow taller and keep up in science. As long as you don't sprawl too much your science will be just as good if not better than 4-city tradition game though it matures slower (hence a slower finish time on SV). It's one of my favorite strategies and the AI can't seem to compete with it on immortal. Great fun! Keep in mind the fact that you have 7+ powerful cities late-game gives you great advantages over smaller empires and it feels more satisfying to me. Production being the main one. You can't be beat on international projects, can support a larger military, and build one faster as well. If you worry about falling behind on science you might claim Glory of God or Jesuit Education as your reformation. Your massive faith from the religious buildings and extra temples/grand temple late game will translate into instant buys of all the new science buildings as you tech them or lots of extra great people and the game has changed where buying great people with faith doesn't affect the pool so they really are "free" now I believe. That's at least 3-4 extra scientists to catch up late-game and engineers. It does quite well. You should be able to win a wide SV between 1850-1900 easy.

I agree that playing "optimally" every game can get a little stale. I just wasn't sure that this strategy would work even on Immortal, but knowing that you've made it work at that level, I just might try it out in my next game. Thanks!

 

[danaphanous]

np, it is a pretty fun way to play and wide/religious is my favorite of all the strats I've tried! Easy to mess up though.

I didn't say this but I actually usually only open piety when I'm done with the tenets that I think are most important in liberty or tradition (based on if I'm going smaller or larger). Piety usually operates best midgame to help build your gold, faith, and make all your religious purchases even cheaper. In synergy with religious buildings to buy it really gets new cities off the ground with instant high culture and happiness to offset the settling penalties. It works really well for supporting midgame expansion with both happiness and gold. It is a bad choice to open it too early as it doesn't give the early perks you need to really get off your feet.

It's sort of a balance of the extra culture from buildings vs. going so wide the policy costs get too high. I'm not sure what the break-point is but an average game I might end up with 5-6 cities with piety/tradition and 7-10 with piety/liberty. Depends on map size. try Celts or a religiously biased civ for your first game so you are guaranteed to get a wide pick for your religion and tell me how it goes!

Shame India doesn't have a religious advantage, their half-unhappiness pop ability is amazing for this kind of game. You can grow your many cities that much taller. The one game I managed to get mosques/pagodas with them I had the most amazing wide empire I've every had. 12 cities, all soaring into the 25+ size. My endgame science rate was ludicrous because it was a large map too. I was getting future tech every 2-3 turns if I recall and finished 5 social policy trees plus buying everything I cared about in order.