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Do you believe in punishment?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hygro, Jun 24, 2019.

?

How do you feel about punishment itself?

  1. Just punishment is a virtue

    33.3%
  2. Punishment is a necessary evil

    20.5%
  3. All responses to misdeeds should only be for harm reduction etc

    28.2%
  4. Some other take that’s meaningfully different without pedantry

    5.1%
  5. Erika will post a meme that is this option

    12.8%
  1. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    Wut ? It's the entire point of your post, to describe how conservative are supposed to think and assign moral value.
    That's one part. Humans tend to overestimate personal responsibility and underestimate outside factors. But that's just one of several aspects.
    Another part is simply perception bias - until you've actually lived through something, you just infer how it happens or work through how you imagine it does.
    Yet another part is just psychological defense mechanism : if something is bad, you try to find reasons why it shouldn't happen to you - inversely, if something is good, you try to find reasons why it should happen to you.

    My message you quoted initially was in fact mainly about this third point.
     
  2. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Are you claiming that it isn't true? Even though licentiousness is expected behavior in this Brave New World we've created, there's still a huge incentive for rapists to go after what they perceive to be loose women (the notion makes even regular men pretty invasive). In Islamic societies, the hijab functions as a signifier of social capital (that you have a husband, that your family will protect you, etc). If you don't have one, you're either a prostitute or a Westerner and are going to get raped sooner or later.

    I think you overestimate the degree to which misfortune falls upon the undeserving, at least at the hands of their own societies. The reason conservatives tend towards a more 'just-world' view is because virtue really works. You really are better off without pleasure-chasing.
     
  3. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Oh my

    Well thank you for demonstrating that Tfish is basically correct...
     
    cardgame and haroon like this.
  4. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    On the other hand, I must be a bigot because I've condemned that system...
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  5. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Of course, the KEY words there are JUST and VIRTUE - which are, in truth, all hypocritical and self-righteous false pretense aside - just as weak points of modern Conservatives as modern Liberals, Progressives, or Socialists. EVERY SINGLE DAY my sense of justice is violated by watching the news, and Conservatives are responsible for causing it as much as any other ideological group.
     
  6. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Your warped worldview doesn't even make sense.

    First you're saying "licentiousness" leads to rape. Then you're saying that in fundy Muslim countries everyone without a hijab is guaranteed to get raped. Giving you the benefit of the doubt that that is true wouldn't that mean that super-sexually-repressed (anti-licentious to you) societies are actual worse (given 100% rate of eventual rape there (unless you hide under a sheet) and much lower than 100% chance of rape in the slutty ol' USA)?
     
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  7. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Not at all. It's just that Muslim countries, even ones with low rates of polygamy, still have a culture built around it and it far outweighs the benefits of modesty. Among Haredim, by contrast, you're perfectly safe.
     
  8. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Unless its your husband abusing you in which case the community just pretends it isn't happening.
     
  9. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Possibly in the case of big-name rabbis, but women have a lot of power in Orthodox communities. It just isn't the explicit contract-based power that liberals want.

    EDIT: In what other traditional group would you see things like this?
     
  10. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

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    Hmm... this is Epicurianism.
     
  11. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    You did notice shes a Democrat who worked for Clinton.
     
  12. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    From outsiders perhaps. But given the CRIMES, VIOLATIONS OF TRUST, and OPPRESSION THROUGH BRUTAL SOCIAL METHODS IN INHUMAN LEVELS OF INTOLERANCE that always goes on this insular communities - but you don't consider those crimes, do you. Which is I keep saying you have ABSOLUTELY no moral high ground and promote no real justice, but want to take your twisted, perverse, wicked, and vain power, greed, and lust, to different arenas, while hypocritically condemning those you do such things in other areas. The filth that doe not rise or descend in the pond, it only scatters from each other across the surface.
     
  13. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    I really don't understand your mindstate Mouthwash.

    Everyone is "pleasure chasing". Obsessing about some strict set of rules gives the mind some peace/pleasure, you get pleasure thinking the other heathens on CFC are immoral & you are on the true path. Being judgemental is a dopamine fix just as sure as grinding against some lady's butt in the club (and with no risk, you don't have to leave your home, go out, risk rejection, make a real human connection... you only just have to ideas, state them, state others are wrong, profit).

    I get annoyed YouTube is trying to feed me all these stoic videos just because I'm about bettering myself. Epicurianism is way better. It deals with the goal directly. I have no patience for those who try to pretend they are not seeking joy as their highest aim. Discipline is great but it is a means to an end - feeling better, feeling better is always the aim. Denying it and beating around the bush will always lead to nueroticism.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
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  14. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Altruism is often fed and motivated by pain, not pleasurable response. It's nice to think chasing the better angels of our nature that does the lifting, and sometimes it probably does, but given the rates of good works that get done by the suffering and depressed, on the balance of things its probably the more empathic of us fleeing the whips of their demons.

    Obsession is very nearly an opposite of peace. :)
     
  15. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Fleeing pain, chasing pleasure, it's two sides of the same coin.
     
  16. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    In the sense that everything is everything, sure. But to specify the objection: egoism is an inadequate universal explanation.
     
  17. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Epicurianism is not egotism. In the modern vernacular hedonism means eating, drinking & being merry, damn tomorrow but originally it was about temperance & mindful living to really appreciate the necter of life.

    I liked Sam Harris' thoughts on the meaning of life, which was "Create a world that the mind wants to live in", I could add for oneself AND others.

    But whether we like it or not we are always striving for well being/happiness/whateveryouwantocallit. I prefer philosophies that don't try to pretend we can ever value anything else above that (no stoic really values waking up at 4am to run up a hill, they value the feeling of it, the idea that they are being healthy & noble). What are values even? Principles that give us direction & on some level, peace. It's all striving for peace no matter how you slice it.
     
  18. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Perhaps you have a definition of self interest I would find novel or maybe limited? Seeking personal peace seems like self interest, yes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  19. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    An administration that was to the right of the current one, yes.

    What I'm talking about is hedonism, i.e. pursuit of 'low' pleasures like sex and status.

    The fact that happiness is an emotion does not mean it is 'merely' an emotion. I pursue happiness because fulfilling my values creates it, not because happiness is the only good (against your example, I want to be happy because I really am healthy and noble rather than because I was deceived by an evil demon into thinking that I was). Modern moral philosophers - especially utilitarians - fundamentally do not grasp this point. It is why people sacrifice their emotional happiness, endure immense pain and give up everything they enjoy in life to serve purposes larger than them.

    May I ask if you would support wireheading as a method of achieving your goals? If not, why?
     
  20. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Do you mean the current Democratic party? The current Republican administration is generally regarded as far to the right of previous Democratic administrations.
    Pursuit of status is a feature of traditional societies too in case you hadn't noticed.
     

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