1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Do you believe in punishment?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hygro, Jun 24, 2019.

?

How do you feel about punishment itself?

  1. Just punishment is a virtue

    33.3%
  2. Punishment is a necessary evil

    20.5%
  3. All responses to misdeeds should only be for harm reduction etc

    28.2%
  4. Some other take that’s meaningfully different without pedantry

    5.1%
  5. Erika will post a meme that is this option

    12.8%
  1. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    14,441
    Location:
    Misery
    When it's diluted as much as your math made it out to be, I find it meaningless. That's seems like orders of magnitude below a margin of error, you know?
     
  2. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2002
    Messages:
    23,133
    Location:
    Montana
    Sure, that's up to you to decide where your moral limit is. Also up to you to decide if your vote counts etc. But there's obviously a difference between a casual coke user doing 2 grams a year and therefore 1/25,000 chance your demand enabled the killer and buying 5 iphones in 10 years making you

    0.00004000
    0.00000007

    We could change the equation to dollars. A gram of cocaine's price varies but say it is $80. A new iphone is now $1000. But used to be cheaper. So say you spend $320 a year on iphones (1/2 years) (early adopter, not aggressive in keeping up annually though). So that's 4 grams of cocaine. Now we're looking at

    0.00008000
    0.00000007

    That's 1000 fold more murderous consumption. Not just murder too. I dunno how many rapes iphone production drives but organized crime in Mexico be raping for enforcement of trade just as they are killing.

    There's a clear moral distinction by virtue of scale.
     
  3. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2015
    Messages:
    4,813
    Location:
    The Twilight Zone
    what you're talking about is revenge, not punishment, and once again you're projecting your own petty feelings onto other people. personally I don't have anything against revenge nor violence, especially against ISIS members, but it's both unhelpful and strictly wrong. Worst case scenario you'll make a martyr out of a murderer.

    this seems totally healthy and not problematic at all

    why do we even have couples therapy and meaningful conversations when we can just beat the living **** out of someone and force him into subjugation? I think you've just solved all of societies problems.
     
    Narz and cardgame like this.
  4. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2019
    Messages:
    242
    I meant strict only in the sense of it being more exclusive, as in, you would hold a greater number of people responsible for a great number of actions than me. I didn't mean strict in the sense of, holding people to strict moral code (in that sense yes, you are more strict). I just don't think merely existing in the causal chain is enough, like there are a lot more boxes I need to see ticked before I blame someone.
     
  5. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    14,441
    Location:
    Misery
    20k per year on cocaine, 13k per year (in usa alone) on coal. I'm not trippin' on having my lights on extra long or overclocking my cpu and nobody else is either. This is just too far removed to be a concern for almost anyone, I feel confident in saying that.
     
  6. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2015
    Messages:
    4,813
    Location:
    The Twilight Zone
    This I think is a half-truth. Women in popular culture nowadays are sexualized more than ever before, especially young women. Even kids, very notable here is the Nickelodeon scandal around Dan Schneider the Foot Freak and the other guy who is literally a sentenced child molester yet still working with Nick, as if America didn't seem insane enough, as if Weinstein wasn't enough.. Promiscuity, I would agree with you, is associated with being bad, and is also often punished. Though I would argue that nowadays being "bad" is something that is almost forced on people. If you look at how the phrase "bad *****" went from being an insult, to being in underground hip hop, to being in mainstream hip hop, to literal Disney stars like Ariana Grande using it in every single song of hers. Many female stars kind of ride this new wave of "raunchiness" or whatever you want to call it, especially Miley. You could say it's a subversive act to erase the negative connotation of the promiscuous woman, but imho it's really just the logical evolution of the "sex sells" mantra. Women in popular culture, in American culture especially, are constantly reduced to body and sex objects. I know we had Britney already decades earlier and people thought that was bad, but it's evolved a ton ever since. I think another thing we've done is moved away from eroticism and towards pornography, especially with regards to music videos. There's a difference between implying something and showing it.. So, to sum it up, I think the promiscuous woman, which is now officially the "bad bish" has been completely rebranded and our image of promiscuous women is changing, but not at all in good ways.
     
  7. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2002
    Messages:
    23,133
    Location:
    Montana
    Keeping a hospital powered is saving more lives than keeping a doctor's nose powdered.
     
  8. Patine

    Patine Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    6,784
    It is often been the case that many of those who preach the hardest, the most inflexibly, the most firebrand, the condemnatory, and the most reactionary on their view of morality - especially sexual issues - very often - disturbingly often, in fact - are secretly, themselves, twisted, perverted people with dark things lurking in their basement and/or closet, so too speak. I wonder, musingly, what we'd find if we dug up the dark corners of your house, metaphorically speaking, @Mouthwash.
     
  9. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    14,441
    Location:
    Misery
    Yeah but I'm not doing anything with my electricity except posting here and other self centered activities
     
  10. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2015
    Messages:
    4,813
    Location:
    The Twilight Zone
    if libido is the indicator, women might like sex even more than men. narz hit the nail on the head with this one. it would be wrong to say that women generally have a higher libido, but they often do. it's also different wrt age and how long one has been in a relationship. male libido generally lowers the longer the relationship, female might even rise.

    yes, as crazy as that sounds, women might like sex more than us. and science might agree. also, not having multiple orgasms sucks. I think it's not per se impossible for men, I might have even made it work once, but it might jus b wishful thinking..
     
  11. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    18,375
    Shooting blanks hurts.
     
  12. Patine

    Patine Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    6,784
    Unless that's all you shoot, like my cousin's husband. They adopted two children...
     
  13. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    18,375
    Not that kind of process. The other, more volume based, process.
     
  14. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    14,441
    Location:
    Misery
    Do you believe in that process as a punishment? :groucho:
     
  15. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant The Voice in Your Head Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    7,966
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Red Sector A
  16. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2001
    Messages:
    13,303
    Location:
    Facing my computer.
    Punishment is a necessity for any human society. I get the feeling that most of the people who say it's bad are just stuck trying to posture about how they are so much better, and are just sheltered and shortsighted idiots who can't (or, more probably, don't want to) see past their delusions.

    We aren't as sophisticated and dispassionate as the ideal man living in the ideal world they build in their head is. Education is important because it's basically conditioning using our instincts, and social education consists in a large part of feeling the boundaries of what is acceptable in society, which is learned intellectually "this isn't done, because arbitrary reasons or because such logical reason" but is actually emotionally assimilated due to the subtleties of social pressure, and social pressure is based on the carrot and stick of acceptation and punishment by peers.

    Not only do we need some form of punishment for even the most basic education, but we also need it to nourish our need for justice. Punishment is, psychologically speaking, some sort of "karma equalizer" : you did something bad, you receive something bad. It's required for most victims to feel that "justice has been served" and get on with their lives. It also allows the victim to defer their feelings of vengeance to society and avoid personal vendetta, and to enforce any sort of rule.

    Good luck having a society at all without punishment.
     
  17. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    18,375
    I'm going to disagree. It works pretty junky for both. But young people are horny and full of hormones and know better than everybody else anyways. Most of them seem to outgrow it and decide it's pretty sucky. Then there are cretins. Now, you might make an argument that the percentage of men that are emotionally and empathically cretinous is somewhat higher than the percentage of women, but when observing irresponsible damage, a few goes a long way into the many who are not. I don't care if the show is popular or what tribal flags it drapes over itself for affectation. Certain messages are trash. Almost makes one miss Harlequin. :lol:
     
  18. Patine

    Patine Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    6,784
    Of course, the problem is the question of whether simple displays of and examples of authority alone, actions to reinforce the ego of those in authority, paranoid elimination of enemies (or perceived enemies) by authority figures, or the punishment of breaches of religious morals held by the leadership (but not necessarily all in society) that are not necessarily needed to keep order, stability, and function in society, and may even, in the long term, harm such, can be considered as legitimate "punishment" or just authoritarian vanity.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
  19. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2001
    Messages:
    13,303
    Location:
    Facing my computer.
    That's basically the usual (and ubiquitous) point about "balance". Draconian punishments are in the end counter-productive, just like irrelevant ones. We are products of evolution, and evolution is all about "whatever is good enough", which is the rule of thumb for "neither too little nor too much".
     
  20. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,467
    Location:
    Scotland
    Does this tell us that punishment is morally right, or that people are morally frail?

    It seems unreasonable to place a person in extreme and traumatic circumstances, and take their response as pointing towards some greater moral truth.
     
    cardgame likes this.

Share This Page