Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by GT_OKEZ, Nov 9, 2016.
Is the sidetrack to a religion worth it for Greece? How do you play them (both Gorgo and Pericles)?
I try to grab a religion pretty much as a rule. It's a fairly useful system. But yes, Greece makes it easier.
I haven't tried Greece yet, but my guess is, if you aren't playing deity, its probably worth doing. Greece gets a lot of cultural bonuses and a special theater district, which means if you can set up a religion, you can pull in extra tourism that way. The biggest argument against getting one is probably the hoplite, which comes as a competitor to getting a religion, but the AI generally spams warriors anyway, so I think a religion is good with Greece.
Not much of a side track when you can get it so quickly and easily as Greece. I think it's almost a given that you should get a religion as a few civs, Greece is one of them
What beliefs are you guys taking then?
The biggest key with Greece is the early wildcard slot. Put the +2 GP points policy in there and that goes a long way to being able to get a prophet.
But other than being able to get one easier than most other civs, you've still got to decide whether it's worth the time to invest in it.
Thinking about playing Pericles focused on a cultural victory. Religious beliefs I'm looking at are:
Lay Ministry: Each Holy Site or Theater Square district in a city following this Religion provides +1 Faith or +1 Culture respectively. ( Further enhance the Acropolis strong culture output).
Papal Primacy: Type bonuses from City-States following your Religion 50% more powerful. (Nice synergy with Pericles' LUA).
Stewardship: Each Campus or Commercial Hub district in a city following this Religion provides +1 Science or +1 Gold respectively. (Gives the option to boost economy and science along with Greece's culture boosts. More well rounded bonus)
Defender of the Faith: Combat units gain +10 Combat Strength near friendly cities that follow this Religion. (Great for defense when others come and try to stop you from running away with culture).
Crusade: Combat units gain +10 Combat Strength near foreign cities that follow this Religion. (Useful in a situation where you might have to protect a city state you're suzerain of)
Jesuit Education: May purchase Campus and Theater Square district buildings with Faith. (Can be extremely useful if you have high faith generation)
Synagogue: +5 Faith ( Good synergy with Jesuit education, theocracy, and faith purchasing strategy, really strong with Simultaneom policy card +10 faith)
Meeting House: +3 Faith; +2 Production ( Always good in any situation)
Wat: +3 Faith; +2 Science (Great if you want science bonus to compliment your natural culture bonuses)
I'd give Gorgo very similar beliefs but more offensively focused. Take a mosque for the extra spread charge. Take Crusade to convert a city before taking it (Can be very powerful with Hoplite bonus). Faith purchasing strat could be really good for her getting units instantly on the field and production bonuses are good for any army.
Gorgo beliefs I think would be strong:
Church Property: +2 Gold for each city following this Religion. (Gold for purchasing and upgrading military)
Pilgrimage: +2 Faith for every city following this Religion in other civilizations. (If you dedicate to a faith purchasing/religious spread strat)
Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this Religion. (Might be better gold depending on how tall cities you want to control are - again gold is great for upgrades and purchasing units)
Crusade: Combat units gain +10 Combat Strength near foreign cities that follow this Religion. ( Great combat bonus if you take a missionary or apostle to convert a city you want to take first)
Work Ethic: +1% Production for each follower. (Production is always good especially for a military minded Civ)
Zen Meditation: +1 Amenity in cities with 2 specialty districts. (An option to deal with happiness caused by war weariness)
Meeting House: +3 Faith; +2 Production (Production always great)
Mosque: +3 Faith; Missionaries and Apostles +1 Spread Religion charge ( You'll be spreading your religion offensively instead of more defensively)
Synagogue: +5 Faith ( If you want a faith purchasing strat)
I generally skip religion entirely as I simply don't like the mechanics of it. If I get one, then I handle it as passively as possible if I don't then I basically ignore it.
Other than a quick shift into Theocracy when it opens up to dump collected faith points in bolstering my midgame army, it doesn't really do anything that can't be done more interestingly elsewhere.
im athiest in real life so i avoid religion like the plague.
I feel like religion is incredibly weak in this game. As soon as you build holy sites instead of commercial hubs, harbors, industrial zones and a campus here and there, the district scaling mechanic will ruin your production and infrastructure in mid game.
Religion right now is powerful for one thing: Domination with faith buying units. Obviously, that only works well with a high faith output and I feel like Greece cannot guarantee that.
Overall, I'd say go for it with Gorgo if you really want to commit your strategy to domination victory. With Pericles, I'd definitely go for the early scientist instead or make expansion easier by running cheaper builders, settlers etc more often.
So I just saw that Jesuit Education ( the belief to purchase theater district and campus buildings with faith) does not apply to the acropolis. I think this is a bug. It should apply to the acropolis but the wording says only theater district.
I'm further inclined to believe that religion is too much of a sidetrack and investment for the Greek player. The other core districts are too important. Holy Site might be better if you're going for taller cities but I tend to find playing wider but smaller is better.
Jesuit education says that you can purchase theater district buildings, not the district itself.
Reread what I wrote. I said theater district and campus buildings. This doesn't work for Acropolis buildings ( as in the amphitheater, museums, etc).
Guess what, nobody cares. Ironic how it's only atheists who feel the need to express their ideology lol
District cost doesn't really scale that much with total number of districts, the much more important factors are whether you have more of a particular kind of district than the average and the amount of techs/civics discovered.
With that said it is often hard to justify getting a holy site before a commercial hub or industrial zone once those are unlocked (harbor is only for some cities on most maps). After those though it's pretty safe. You're definitely not screwing yourself by going for religion, it generally pays off (at least for me) enough to be worth it.
I would go for either +X% Production per follower (very strong, this can be like Ruhr Valley in every city) or Jesuit Education as a founder. Under some circumstances (fresh water poor start), maybe housing from religious buildings instead. Mosques are my go-to religious building since they save you a good amount of faith in the long run, assuming you want to spread the religion at all, but as Russia I like Cathedrals to house the extra artwork from all the early-to-midgame artists I tend to get. Russia is an especially strong religious Civ, but this is about Greece, so I'd say it depends, I don't tend to get enough artists as Greece to bother with Cathedrals (not to mention you can spam the Acropolis everywhere so you'll have all the museums you want).
The other two beliefs I don't feel make very strong impacts, so I tend to take 30% cheaper faith purchases (to make inquisitions easier, and for apostle purchasing to defend my religion), and whatever else I feel suits my strategy at the time (Tithe is always good). Pantheon is extremely situational, but Divine Spark is my go-to.
Edit: One good advantage of having an early religion is that you can use the quite-easy-to-get Holy War casus belli, which I don't believe you can use if you haven't founded a religion. It keeps warmonger penalties for the Renaissance/Industrial eras manageable.
Just so you know Jesuit Education doesn't work for purchasing buildings in the Acropolis.
That's true, I actually forgot about that part. So the production bonus or housing from shrines/temples is probably the way to go as a founder.
I'm perfectly aware of that. In fact, I made a whole thread about it and discussed the mechanic in depth. Only researched techs and civics add production costs. Nothing else.
And I say it again. Not only do you add another tech (Astronomy) which increases costs but you also add "time". Time in which you research a lot of techs and civics.
The capital might take a while until it hits size 7 and 10 and before that, the holy site blocks the 3rd and 4th available district. Same in other cities. If you want to play optimally and avoid the slump in mid game, it is essential to get a commercial hub as soon as possible. An early campus or more cities instead of a holy site makes you reach this goal faster.
Finally, if you want to found a religion on immortal/deity, you absolutely need to build a holy site first thing and you are either forced to pick the pantheon that adds +1gpp and/or expand to a second city very quickly and build a second holy site. The capital also often needs a shrine to keep up with the AI or has to run the faith project. All of this hurts expansion, military and infrastructure during a time where you don't have any of that. And don't get me started on all the shrines and temples you want to build later instead of actually useful stuff . The extra housing could be achieved by building an additional worker and improve more resources/farms.
The +% production per population is very weak during the early game where it matters most and it's definitely weaker compared to an extra 1-3 trade routes from early commercial hubs with more improved tiles from the extra workers and settlers you could have build instead.
Overall, I feel like you have to sacrifice too much for pretty mediocre bonuses.
Russia feels great for religion because their unique holy site only costs half as much, they can place it in optimal locations more easily and unique district don't add to the district limit per population. It essentially counters 80% of the stuff I've just said
The holy war bonus is amazing, yes, but as I said religion is great for one thing: Domination supported by Theocracy and faith buying units . Because the missing production/infrastructure doesn't really matter in that case.
I wish it would be different. Balance just feels off.
Perhaps. My experience has been different. It's true that the first holy site is an investment that takes a while to pay off, but I don't feel the sacrifice is as large as being made out to be. For one thing, trade routes don't even produce very much for you until you get districts going up (the Holy Site adds +2 food to a trade route to the capital, not as important as a hub/harbor/iz bonus but useful, and earlier). And while the initial investment in a religion is a trade-off, I found that once that one was made, it was often unnecessary to build additional holy sites until after the industrial zones/harbors/commercial hubs went up. And even on Immortal I could secure a religion with a single Holy Site, Shrine, and the Revelation policy. It does add a certain amount of flexibility to your game, with keeping the option of a religious victory open, granting the Holy War casus belli, and the purchase of military units using faith with Theocracy. More to the point, there are limiting factors on the immediate benefits you can get from those other things--improved tiles need population to work them, trade routes need districts to provide yields, settlers need good land to settle. By all means, prioritize all those things as appropriate, I would not suggest otherwise. My only contention is that going out of the way for a religion isn't quite so large a sacrifice as suggested (and especially on difficulty levels lower than Immortal). And in the end game, whether you're producing science victory projects or Modern era wonders for tourism, that extra 15-25% (or more) production in every city may help quite a bit.
Now, are all those benefits as strictly beneficial as going straight for commercial hubs, industrial zones, and harbors in every single city every single game? Maybe not, but I'm personally not a fan of playing the exact same way every time
Separate names with a comma.