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Do you like the movie the last samura?

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by only sky, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. only sky

    only sky Chieftain

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    Hello, Everyone!
    If you like the movie the last samurai, then you maybe interested by this.
    Yesterday when I was playing DoC alternate I came up some ideas.

    1.Add a “rebellious force”. It functions like an independent nation, you can’t have diplomacy with it, when one of your cities has three or four unhappiness, or you just go through a revolution, or your stability just dropped, or you just discovered a technology like democracy or communism, it will show up near your capital and attack you just like a minor Seljuk in the game.
    But them don’t attack other civs unless other big civ declare war on it (If it is not easy to add, is it possible to convert independent1 or independent2 slot into a rebellious force, And leave only one slot for independent nation? Or use the Celtic slot? )
    And the name of that rebellious force can be dynamic.
    For example: I use France and I discovered Democracy but I didn’t switch my civics to republic or universal suffrage, them a rebellious force called “Jacobin” appears near Paris. You can call this French revolution.
    ( And the rebellious force can only appear in a civ if a human control that civ, so to avoid problems for AI and enhance in-game fun for a human player)

    2.The Last Samurai

    Make some tech temporarily un-researchable for non-western civ.
    Like China, Korea, Japan in 17th century can’t research rifle or replicable parts or Astronomy, they can only research scientific method to the most.
    so to mimic the fall of the East and the rise of the west.
    They can only achieve “westernization” to get those western tech..

    Add a national wonder called “westernization” for non-western civs. The prerequisite are 1.has tech scientific method. 2. Has an ambassador with a European civ. (is prerequisite 2 necessary?)
    It can be built in a city by a non-western civ if that civ is technically lagging behind European civ (can designate it as Germany or Britain) with 3 or 5 technology during 17th century.
    The building cost is partly in proportion of the number of cities that eastern civ has. If that city has an embassy with western countries, the cost will be halved.
    for example: “westernization”In Japan the cost will be much less and for China it will be much more.
    My concept is the larger the civ, the less likely they will learn from others.

    “westernization”can have different names for different civ. Like “Meiji restoration” for Japan.

    When “westernization”is built, the effects are
    I. Get free tech like rifle or replicable parts to let that civ catch up with the west.
    II. And free units like riflemen and ironclad.
    III. Unlock the inaccessible western tech, so they can research them.
    IV. Stability drops,
    V. Rebellious forces appears near the capital (if human) , mostly melee units. If you control Japan, you can use your new free riflemen to attack them, like in the movie the “The Last Samurai”.

    VI. Likely to declare war on nearby no-western civ that didn’t built “westernization” yet.

    So by this concept, if you don’t build embassy or don’t think scientific method is important, you should change your tactics when you play Japan.
    Thank you for reading this.
     
  2. Hojsimpson

    Hojsimpson Chieftain

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    I think it would be easier to make a new tech like.. ''arabic knowledge'' ''western knowledge''.
    Some civs starts with these techs , others not. These techs allow you to build certain wonders and research other techs. But I don't think we need it.
     
  3. BenZL43

    BenZL43 Physician - still can't spell this correctly.

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    Rebels are worth considering, but I disagree with your way.

    Your proposal is already in-game anyway in the form of Independents, that declare itself when your stability are low. Outdated civics also give you penalty, so it can lead to cities-declaring-independence thing as well.

    I don't watch The Last Samurai, but I watched Ronin 47. It's also a film around the Samurai, based on true legend story, and it's pretty awesome.
     
  4. The Diocletian

    The Diocletian Fire Fly

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    I feel like most of this is adequately represented by anarchy.
     
  5. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    I didn't really like The Last Samurai. So many things wrong with it, it would take me a TL;DR post to blast it.

    That aside, I really, really do not like this mechanical suggestion either on the rationale that they are way too deterministic and unrealistic,
    not to mention, to overhaul entire tech trees based on culture is really overly complicated and difficult to design.

    Just ask yourself, would it be fun to you if you were completely locked out from researching Rifling?
    I wouldn't. While the civs in this game aren't equal by design, they are all able to utilize the same basic mechanics, such as a unified tech tree.

    Let me give you an analogy.
    Let's say we're playing a fighting game, like Street Fighter. You're Ryu. I'm Sagat.
    Different movesets aside, we can both do roughly the same basic things like move back and forth, crouch, block and jump.
    Except your suggestion is like saying:
    You're Ryu, I'm Sagat, we can both do everything, except Sagat can't block.
    The game wouldn't really be any fun if it were like that.
     
  6. The Diocletian

    The Diocletian Fire Fly

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    As always, said far more eloquently and in-depth than me. I agree.
     
  7. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    :yup:
     
  8. Sanguivorant

    Sanguivorant Submitter

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    If you propose this, then I propose that European civs must construct a national wonder called, "Library of Arabic Literature", which they need to research education, optics or any other tech that leads to the Renaissance era.
     
  9. only sky

    only sky Chieftain

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    If we can divide the world civ as eastern and western, if a eastern civ first discover America, then all eastern civs can have a research rate increases. rest of the civ lag behind and build "easternization" and vice versa.
    or if a new world civ discovered the old world before the old world discover them, then all the old world civ has a resaerch rate drop, and the new old civ receive free units to conquer the old world. then the old world civ can build "Americanization" to catch up with the new world.
    and it allowed the freedom to choose for the players.because it didn't ban certain asain civ to research certain tech.
     
  10. only sky

    only sky Chieftain

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    Europa Universalis IV use the "westernization" system. I think it reflects history and the fun is using an asian country to compete with other asian country to get "westernization".
     
  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    I have played the EU series, unfortunately the Westernization system is one of my major gripes with it. The fourth game did it better than the first, but it still has some problems.

    Westernization in EU is also more about tech speed and unit strength, not the complete unavailability of certain technologies.
     
  12. only sky

    only sky Chieftain

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    so if we just increase or decrease the research rate, don't block certain tech, that will be fine?
     
  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    I view the tech rate level as part of the challenge of playing a particular civ. You shouldn't be able to get rid of such an obstacle by some kind of action.
     
  14. BenZL43

    BenZL43 Physician - still can't spell this correctly.

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    Isn’t the current portrayal on tech speed rate that increase and decrease for certain civs throughout the era is not sufficient enough for this Westernization?
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    Who're you asking?
     
  16. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    While the rise of the West as the dominant force might be considered probable in 1444, in 3000 BC this is not at all likely, for example what if the Song didn't get conquered?
     
  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    Nobody knows.
     
  18. only sky

    only sky Chieftain

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    If you play a civ like Japan , there are no real challenge and it just get boring, If you play as Korea ,tibet and China, after you somehow defeated Mongols, there are not much challenge left, and your score get highest,but it also get bored because after that victory, you have no enemy, so In order to make the game playing fun, I think it is a good idea to add another major challenge for those Civ like westernisation and rebel force.

    By the way, to make games more balanced and fair to non-western civs, I propose when they suffer a research sppeed drop, they should have a bonus to allow them to have more armies, like +50% melee production before they build "westernisation" So it can reflect the fact they have lots of "manpower" (weak units) while western civs has powerful militory but a relative shortage of men.
     
  19. Sanguivorant

    Sanguivorant Submitter

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    It doesn't seem like much difficulty. All you're really proposing is making those civs build a wonder in order to get more techs.
     
  20. only sky

    only sky Chieftain

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    Hello, You have changed your avator, Is it a cat head?
    I no longer insist a ban on certain techs for eastern civ after reading your post.
    There are no need to overhaul the tech tree, but just adjust the rerearch rate of non-western Civ, if one of no-western civ first discovered America, there are no research speed drop for them, but if a western civ first discovered the new world, they will get a research speed drop, say 200% slower than the west civ. and they have to build a national wonder called "westernisation" to remove that research rate drop and get some free techs , riflemen and ironclads to catch up with the west.

    Or maybe it can apply to a western civ too. if a eastern civ discover America, western civ will suffer a research rate drop, and have to build something like "Oriental studies“ or "The Asiatic Society" to catch up with the east. Then it has fairness and you can experience a different world order.
     

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