Do you play with Ancient Ruins off?

[Peaceful Civ]

I recently started playing with Ancient Ruins turned off and I like it a lot better. With Ancient Ruins turned on, I have to constantly worry about what the AI is finding, and if I don't get a 1pop, scout upgrade, and free tech (playing on Prince), I feel at a serious disadvantage and end up wanting to restart the game. Who needs that?

So I turned it off and find that my play is improved as a result. I can focus on exploration for the right reasons, and never have to compromise early by being forced to build a scout and leaving my capitol and workers open to barbarians because I am out scouting for ruins.

Anyone else turn them off? What are your reasons for playing with/without them?

 

[Qbone]

I play Multiplayer a lot, and we leave them on. It's not fair, in my opinion, but it certainly is exciting. Then again, we do keep Computer players around to even it out.

 

[joncnunn]

I normally have them switched off. But since I'm currently playing the Shoshone, events are on for this game.

 

[MantaRevan]

I play with them on because I think they spice up the early game and provide incentive to build a scout(and my first build is usually a scout). I also feel that if the Shoshone are in the game and and I turn ruins off, I'm shooting one of the AIs in the kneecap, and they aren't really that good to begin with.

 

[FeiLing]

You need to scout for other civs/CS/new city locations anyway, you can not and never skip a scout (unless you know from turn 1-3 on that you're on a tiny island).

Also, when the ruin outcome is bad... then it's bad. So what? You keep replaying any turns when you made a bad choice or something bad happened?

 

[Peaceful Civ]

You need to scout for other civs/CS/new city locations anyway, you can not and never skip a scout (unless you know from turn 1-3 on that you're on a tiny island).

Also, when the ruin outcome is bad... then it's bad. So what? You keep replaying any turns when you made a bad choice or something bad happened?

I generally never build scouts for those reasons. I just scout with my warriors.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Random elements that influence a game independently of a player's choices are not a good factor in the strategy genre . In competitive games, ruins should not be on. Games played without a competitive framework are another matter.

Unfortunately, one of the major flaws for *competition* at the design level of this game is that civs are built around random chance elements to a shocking degree. Civ V was not designed to be a competitively balanced game, and in order to make it so one would have to alter it via rules considerably. Whether that's appealing or not, however, is up to the player.

 

[FeiLing]

Even Dota has random elements in it (which type of creeps spawn is totally random and not mirrored to both map sides, so one team might get easier to clean neutrals than the other). It's still a pretty competitive game, right?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Even Dota has random elements in it (which type of creeps spawn is totally random and not mirrored to both map sides, so one team might get easier to clean neutrals than the other). It's still a pretty competitive game, right?

I'm not interested in logical fallacies, and cited DOTA example is one such.

That said, it is a minor imbalance that really has no justification for existence at this point; a holdover from days where DOTA was anything but a competitive game. I still remember the original DOTA 1.0 way back when, before Frozen Throne was even released. Nothing about early DOTA was balanced or particularly competitive. Over time, they removed flagrant imbalances and made it more competitive.

I have quite a bit of experience in both DOTA and LoL; the latter's consistent neutral camps is evidence that you don't need this random creep nonsense in a competitive setting any more than you need ancient ruins.

Ruins (once upon a time known as huts) are a similar holdover, possibly 20ish years old by now as a mechanic. But a key difference between civ and MOBA as a genre is that civ single player was not, in fact, designed around competitive balance in the first place. A quick look at how people spawn into a game is evidence enough of that, but some civs are strictly better than others in the competitive sense, too.

At least they dumped tech trades, which really really needed to go. I'm frankly surprised that people accepted such a mainstay feature of previous civ titles wiped away, but maybe people were too busy arguing over 1UPT at the time . Regardless, tech trades were awful and shouldn't be missed.

 

[Anhellia]

I generally never build scouts for those reasons. I just scout with my warriors.

I always play with Ruins on. And scouting with your warriors is such a bad habit. I think it is one of the reasons why you are still playing on prince.

 

[Falconiano]

I keep them on, I like the gamble.

 

[newarkinvaders]

For me turning them off is akin to turning off research agreements or any other aspect of the game .Its interesting but its really for me altering the game to the point where if I won a game with them disabled the game dosent really count . Liking going 10 pin bowling with the bumpers up !

 

[Socratatus]

I recently started playing with Ancient Ruins turned off and I like it a lot better. With Ancient Ruins turned on, I have to constantly worry about what the AI is finding, and if I don't get a 1pop, scout upgrade, and free tech (playing on Prince), I feel at a serious disadvantage and end up wanting to restart the game. Who needs that?

I do.

Wow, you constantly worry about what the AI finds?

Ok, I`ve heard this line of reasoning before and find it very strange of anyone to say of strategy games.

I strongly believe that ALL strategy games should have an element of chance. Strategy games basically come from real life, right? Civ5 is based on the reality of being a Leader governing your Empire.

Now, tell me, what head of state has NOT had to worry about the `random` chance that some other nation will pop up with some advantage (invented or otherwise) he doesn`t know about.

Every nation worries about what the other nation might gain.There are some things they just have to deal with that is based on pure `random` chance. Tornadoes, anyone? How about huge Tsunamis or earthquakes or floods or famines that reduce the population by Biblical numbers?

Even in competitive games there should always be that random element. GOOD Players will accept it and deal with it.

Don`t be bad losers because Nation A got something nice that yours didn`t. I try to get them first but if I don`t so be it. I certainly don`t fret over it.

So deal with it.

 

[jtravers88]

When playing at emporer or below, ruins are ok. But with the tech advantage the ai gets at immortal or higher, along with other starting advantages, ruins can have too much effect on the game.

If I'm playing on immortal and end up with a map and a barbarian, I sit and 'wonder' how many more free techs the ai found.

I strongly believe that strategy games should not include randomness. I guess that is the adult in me.

So I won't be dealing with it, I turn them off. Otherwise I'm saving my game with a new random seed right before I discover every ruin. Not a good way to play.

 

[reddishrecue]

I haven't tried ruins off yet, ancient ruins provide some extra bonuses to civilizations that are fortunate enough to find them, but the ancient ruins can have flaws like getting a free technology and the free technology you get is the one that is being researched and has 1 turn from discovery. Also, the reveal barb locations bonus is not that useful imo. All the other bonuses seem okay

 

[Vohbo]

You should not overestimate the effects of the ruins.

For example:
- If you find population, chances are your growth will be impeded a few turns later because you no longer have good tiles to work, and no worker is up and running yet to improve things or you have not been able to get better tiles yet.
- If you find a tech early, the other AI's will have less cost towards researching that tech. The advantage is much smaller than it seems.
- If you get culture, you'll get your first 3 policies a little faster, but after that the difference fades away as policy costs go up quickly.
And those are the three strongest.

So what your problem is is mostly a mental issue where you are worrying about things that are almost completely irrelevant. I used to have this about Flight, and would quit any game where the AI had Flight before me.

 

[Walter R]

I leave them on, it's part of the game.
However, in current game I spawned far south of continent and had met Russia and Aztecs by turn 6 (watching them land on ruins before I could get there). Thing is when I later found their capitals they turned out to be miles away (20+ hexes) - was left wondering how they travelled so fast, another AI bonus?!

 

[Pengui6668]

Meh, if you don't find 3-4 every time you start a game, you're not scouting properly I think. Between those ruins, you should get a culture, an upgrade, or population at least once. I've had the bad luck of getting 2 "You found an ancient map of the surrounding area!" ruins around my cap once, but them's the breaks.