Do you prefer the Holy Roman Empire to Poland?

[Legat]

Perhaps the Poles should stop looking down other countries first. I've never seen something like this before where people glorify their own country as much as here: "Poland was wealthier than A", "Poland was the biggest in time B", "We saved C", "We beat country D", "Poland deserves to be in Civ more than E" and so on.
The use of the term "we" is inherently weird. It shows that someone needs to claim deeds of others to build up his own ego. And some of the claimed achievements of Poland are simple wrong.

What disturbs me is that they say that our western education is inadequate and the reason for our ignorance of Polish greatness, while they themselves show a significant lack of knowledge.

I'm not against the inclusion of Poland in general, but I'm against the inclusion based on nationalism. I just can't stand it when someone says that his own country is better than others.

Not many people seem to know that the Polish were pretty good at whacking the stupid out of Prussia and Russia before 1600. Having vassalise Prussia and occupying great Russian Cities of Moscow(17thCen)and Kiev(11thCen).

Well, the Duchy of Prussia wasn't the same country as the kingdom that was later called Prussia. Prussia was inherited by Brandenburg which renamed itself as Prussia later. So, I would say that Brandenburg is the actual predecessor of the kingdom of Prussia, not the duchy.

 

[aronnax]

Perhaps the Poles should stop looking down other countries first. I've never seen something like this before where people glorify their own country as much as here: "Poland was wealthier than A", "Poland was the biggest in time B", "We saved C", "We beat country D", "Poland deserves to be in Civ more than E" and so on.
The use of the term "we" is inherently weird. It shows that someone needs to claim deeds of others to build up his own ego. And some of the claimed achievements of Poland are simple wrong.

What disturbs me is that they say that our western education is inadequate and the reason for our ignorance of Polish greatness, while they themselves show a significant lack of knowledge.

I agree with you here, the Poles are too nationlistic and some are quite ignorant of HRE. But I have to say, while the Poles mostly defended their countries achievements as a reason to be included, the anti-poles seem to be bashing Poland, completely ignoring its strenghts, focusing too much on the weakness and its more recent history where it was no longer as great as the state it used to be like in the 11-16 hundreds. Both sides of this stupid brawl are at fault, with the ignorant Polish Bashers the first to spark the flame and both sides fanning it.

Well, the Duchy of Prussia wasn't the same country as the kingdom that was later called Prussia. Prussia was inherited by Brandenburg which renamed itself as Prussia later. So, I would say that Brandenburg is the actual predecessor of the kingdom of Prussia, not the duchy.

That is true, but the duchy at one point was a threat to Poland and had indeed invaded and lost to Poland several times. Also Polish action in Russia can not be denined as if as nothing had happened.

 

[Legat]

Finally there is someone with a moderate and reasonable attitude.

 

[TheLastOne36]

But that's why its not in the game. Poland wasn't a key figure in the developement of the colonial empires, whilst HRE was.

HRE had colonies? I know germanyhad but the HRE?

Besides Courland!!! remember!

Poland was once GOOD and is these days NOTHING and before the Second World War after just being revived was a WARMONGER. I find it hard to respect a countries claim that it didn't deserve to be crushed if it only a few years after it's own revival would take another nation's capital. There were never that impressive and the only time they were lasted for nearly no time at all. Just let it die!

Umm, Poland was reversing the partisans, they weren't the aggresive ones, Russia was. It was a polish uprising, and russia was trying to stop it, making russia the aggresive one.

Yes. Just because a country is a country does not mean they need to be in a game about lasting civilizations. geez. Does Monaco need to be in the game just because they are a country? NO. they are smaller than Times Square, yet should they be in according to you hippies?

Umm poland has been a country for over 1,200 years and many people think Poland was a state even before Miezko.

Not many people seem to know that the Polish were pretty good at whacking the stupid out of Prussia and Russia before 1600. Having vassalise Prussia and occupying great Russian Cities of Moscow(17thCen)and Kiev(11thCen). I think people should stop looking down Poland like it did absolutly nothing and got its butt kicked for 1000 years.

yes i agree. At this point i don't care much if poland is in the game or not, i just want people to recognize were not some drunk anoying idiots that bothered every singal nation for over 1000 years.

Poland was remarkbly significant nations in Europe. Afterall, it did save Vienna from the Ottomans even though they were outnumbered.

And poland is the only nation to take Moscow, Lasted longer in WW2 then france, and was the biggest nation in Europe for quite some time.

Also how can a country like poland be a colonial empire in these conditions?

1. Ships would have to travel across Russian, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, German, English, French, Dutch, Belgium, Spanish, Portuguese, waters and costum's.

2. Colonizing leads to war, So if were at war with a nation that's also colonizing for example let's say france, then our supply ships would get captured when we go to french waters while trying to get to our colonies, then some french army in the new world would just take over the colonies.

There are many more reasons but these two would outshine the rest. it is still amazing that Poland actualyl did colonize something! (courland) Even though our colonization was probably worse then the swedish!

 

[TheLastOne36]

Perhaps the Poles should stop looking down other countries first. I've never seen something like this before where people glorify their own country as much as here: "Poland was wealthier than A", "Poland was the biggest in time B", "We saved C", "We beat country D", "Poland deserves to be in Civ more than E" and so on.
The use of the term "we" is inherently weird. It shows that someone needs to claim deeds of others to build up his own ego. And some of the claimed achievements of Poland are simple wrong.

"Poland was wealthier than A", "Poland was the biggest in time B", "We saved C", "We beat country D"

But that's fact you can't beat fact.

"Poland deserves to be in Civ more than E"

Who's saying that? i'm certeinly not. I'd say we deserve it more then the Zulu or something but i think many would agree with me...

And some of the claimed achievements of Poland are simple wrong.

Like what?

What disturbs me is that they say that our western education is inadequate and the reason for our ignorance of Polish greatness, while they themselves show a significant lack of knowledge.

I only partly blame that, i blame the iron curtein more!

I'm not against the inclusion of Poland in general, but I'm against the inclusion based on nationalism. I just can't stand it when someone says that his own country is better than others.

Well your dealing with probably the most nationalistic country on earth!

Finally there is someone with a moderate and reasonable attitude.

So you don't like dealing with my becasue i'm polish? Well i'm not only polish, I'm French, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, Venezuelan, and either Danish or Norwegian(my french family was originally a viking raider that settled in upper france.)

 

[TheLastOne36]

Moderator Action: Post deleted

Menzies that is really offensive towards me. i'm not going tosay much it's just offensive...

 

[Gerino]

I have especially registered to post in this topic. But, before commenting the issue, an auto-presentation: I am Polish, but I regard myself much more as an European, then Terran (or Earthling or whatever you want to call an inhabitant of the Earth), and finally then Polish, so I am not biased towards any of the option because of where I live.

Poland was a great power in Europe, and up to XVII-XVII century it was the most powerful kingdom in the Central-Eastern part of the continent. Neither the Russia, which rose to power pretty late, nor any other country to the south, south-east and east from Poland was a real threat to its position.

The main opponent of Poland was situated in the exactly opposite direction. At the beginning, circa X-XI century, there were Germans. Later - Teutonic Order (which consisted mainly of Germans as well as elite knights from other Western-Europe countries). Then - Swedes. As you should know from history lessons, neither Germans, nor the Teutonic Order, not even the Swedes managed to win - though, they were close.

Poles, by both swords and diplomacy fought their way from one sea (Baltic) to another (Black Sea). Poles openly opposed Rome by providing help to Czech Hussites, that were wrecking havoc in Silesia, as well as crushing one crusade after another. Poland made Prussia their vassal. Poles stopped the Ottoman Empire and thus saved the Austria.

And then Poles got drunk and sold their country - not-so-much-metaphorically speaking. In their self-indulgence, Polish nobility turn against each other, failed to contain insurgencies in nowadays Ukraine, and finally got partitioned by Austria (previously saved by Poland), Prussia (previously vassal of Poland) and Russia (previously nobody).

That would be the history. If you want some more entertaining version of it, I recommend Europa Universalis series (the latest edition should be fine).

And now the conclusions:
a) Poland was an important country in the region (meaning: Europe) for a long period of time.
b) Poland was neither better nor worse than HRE.
c) Sweden has as many reasons to be included in Civ series as Poland.
d) So do Lithuania, Czech Republic, Ukraine and probably some other.
e) Including HRE was a strange decision, as there is already German Empire - addition of a new ruler, not Charlemagne, would be wiser. That is because...
f) ...if HRE was included, so should Teutonic Order, Knights Hospitaller, Livonian Brothers of the Sword and other religion-politic-sword mixtures.
g) To disregard point f), inclusion of Holy See instead of HRE would have been smarter decision. But...
h) HRE is a fun nation to play. You know, as in "playing the computer game with fictional geography, politics, wars" etc. :>

Final statement: I would love to see Poland in new Civ game/expansion, with their hussars, but making such an international... brawl from this matter is just ridiculous.

That would be all, but drop me a line, if some "genius" would spring up with an idea of including Adolf Hitler as an leader of Poland, or other "patriot" with even more important idea of including Poland as a side in chess...

 

[TheLastOne36]

I have especially registered to post in this topic. But, before commenting the issue, an auto-presentation: I am Polish, but I regard myself much more as an European, then Terran (or Earthling or whatever you want to call an inhabitant of the Earth), and finally then Polish, so I am not biased towards any of the option because of where I live.

Poland was a great power in Europe, and up to XVII-XVII century it was the most powerful kingdom in the Central-Eastern part of the continent. Neither the Russia, which rose to power pretty late, nor any other country to the south, south-east and east from Poland was a real threat to its position.

The main opponent of Poland was situated in the exactly opposite direction. At the beginning, circa X-XI century, there were Germans. Later - Teutonic Order (which consisted mainly of Germans as well as elite knights from other Western-Europe countries). Then - Swedes. As you should know from history lessons, neither Germans, nor the Teutonic Order, not even the Swedes managed to win - though, they were close.

Poles, by both swords and diplomacy fought their way from one sea (Baltic) to another (Black Sea). Poles openly opposed Rome by providing help to Czech Hussites, that were wrecking havoc in Silesia, as well as crushing one crusade after another. Poland made Prussia their vassal. Poles stopped the Ottoman Empire and thus saved the Austria.

And then Poles got drunk and sold their country - not-so-much-metaphorically speaking. In their self-indulgence, Polish nobility turn against each other, failed to contain insurgencies in nowadays Ukraine, and finally got partitioned by Austria (previously saved by Poland), Prussia (previously vassal of Poland) and Russia (previously nobody).

That would be the history. If you want some more entertaining version of it, I recommend Europa Universalis series (the latest edition should be fine).

And now the conclusions:
a) Poland was an important country in the region (meaning: Europe) for a long period of time.
b) Poland was neither better nor worse than HRE.
c) Sweden has as many reasons to be included in Civ series as Poland.
d) So do Lithuania, Czech Republic, Ukraine and probably some other.
e) Including HRE was a strange decision, as there is already German Empire - addition of a new ruler, not Charlemagne, would be wiser. That is because...
f) ...if HRE was included, so should Teutonic Order, Knights Hospitaller, Livonian Brothers of the Sword and other religion-politic-sword mixtures.
g) To disregard point f), inclusion of Holy See instead of HRE would have been smarter decision. But...
h) HRE is a fun nation to play. You know, as in "playing the computer game with fictional geography, politics, wars" etc. :>

Final statement: I would love to see Poland in new Civ game/expansion, with their hussars, but making such an international... brawl from this matter is just ridiculous.

That would be all, but drop me a line, if some "genius" would spring up with an idea of including Adolf Hitler as an leader of Poland, or other "patriot" with even more important idea of including Poland as a side in chess...

Hey nice to see some fellow poles helping me out on this topic!!!

d) So do Lithuania, Czech Republic, Ukraine and probably some other.

I disagree there. The only ones that i think come close is austria and Sweden. But that's my Opinion.

 

[TheLastOne36]

i think this brings out an example of what i want to stop:

Though a Polish Calvary or French rifleman with 100% chance of withdrawal (flee) would be good as well as an additional unit.

 

[Legat]

HRE had colonies? I know germanyhad but the HRE?

Besides Courland!!! remember!

The HRE itself didn't have colonies, but parts of it had colonies. There have been colonies in South America and Brandenburg had colonies in Africa. But those were never really important.

About Courland: "Although nominally a vassal state of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the dukes operated autonomously." (Wikipedia)
Saying that the colonies of Courland are Polish achievements is like saying that Solidarnosc was a Russian movement because Poland was a Soviet "vassal" then.

And poland is the only nation to take Moscow

Napoleon?

But that's fact you can't beat fact.

Well, I'm still waiting for a prove for Poland being an economic powerhouse. I guess they dominated European trade at that time?

Who's saying that? i'm certeinly not.

Yesterday you said that Bulgaria and Belarus don't deserve to be in Civ as much as Poland. Also yesterday you said that you don't accept that the HRE deserves to be in. I won't search all your statements about this because it would be too nitpicking. If I can take your above statement serious, you changed your mind anyway and think that every country has the same right to be in Civ as Poland, right?

Like what?

1. claiming that courlands colonies are polish (see above)
2. having conquered Moscow between the world wars
3. having stopped the mongol invasion
4. having Liberia as protectorate (I think Sqonk said this)

That's what came to my mind spontaneously. I won't search in thousands of posts for more.

So you don't like dealing with my becasue i'm polish?

Huh???

 

[aronnax]

Well, I'm still waiting for a prove for Poland being an economic powerhouse. I guess they dominated European trade at that time?

If I ever do find it on Wikipedia, Ill put the link.

During the 1500-1700, Poland-Lithuania was a main exporter of wheat to the western nations that grew too fast for its own domestic markets to support. Not excatly an economic Powerhouse but they did have a monopoly on wheat.

 

[Legat]

Yes, but 1500-1700 isn't Middle Ages as he said. And 1500-1700 there were many other wealthier nations in Europe.

 

[TheLastOne36]

About Courland: "Although nominally a vassal state of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the dukes operated autonomously." (Wikipedia)
Saying that the colonies of Courland are Polish achievements is like saying that Solidarnosc was a Russian movement because Poland was a Soviet "vassal" then.

well we had great responsibility with it of course, we had to give them the supplies and what if france for example declared on courish colonies? then france if at war with Poland. Easy as that. So one could say it was similar to a German "corporation" running inside poland.

Napoleon?

Ahh who could forget Napoleon Bonaparte?

Well, I'm still waiting for a prove for Poland being an economic powerhouse. I guess they dominated European trade at that time?

Black Death didn't reach Poland so Poland was outshining most other nations at the time. that lead to us being Healthier and wealthier then the western europeans.

Yesterday you said that Bulgaria and Belarus don't deserve to be in Civ as much as Poland. Also yesterday you said that you don't accept that the HRE deserves to be in. I won't search all your statements about this because it would be too nitpicking. If I can take your above statement serious, you changed your mind anyway and think that every country has the same right to be in Civ as Poland, right?

Maybe because Bulgaria and Belarus wasn't more significint then poland? The only countries that were as or more significint then poland in my opinion are Sweden and Austria.

Notice how i didn't say Poland deserves more then Bulgaria and Belarus. there's quite a line to what you think i said and what i said.

You said i can't ACCEPT that HRE DESERVES to be in. and i don't think they do. I think Austria Poland and sweden deserve it more. but yah i think HRE deserves to be in before Bulgaria and Belarus.

1. claiming that courlands colonies are polish (see above)

Technichly they were. all of a vassals territory is part of the vassals master. If that's wrong then i'm confused what a vassal is then...

3. having stopped the mongol invasion

We had a big role in it, nobody can deny that.

2. having conquered Moscow between the world wars

Yah i don't know why i said that.... >.< i think i was either confusing myself with Vilnuis or i was drunk.

4. having Liberia as protectorate (I think Sqonk said this)

Squonk said that.

Huh???

You maked me feel like you wouldn't take my comments seriously because i'm polish.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Yes, but 1500-1700 isn't Middle Ages as he said. And 1500-1700 there were many other wealthier nations in Europe.

For example Spain and the dutch.

 

[Legat]

well we had great responsibility with it of course, we had to give them the supplies and what if france for example declared on courish colonies? then france if at war with Poland. Easy as that. So one could say it was similar to a German "corporation" running inside poland.

But it wasn't Poles who did it and the colonies didn't belong to Poland itself. Do you need to claim the deeds of others to make your country important?

You said i can't ACCEPT that HRE DESERVES to be in. and i don't think they do. I think Austria Poland and sweden deserve it more. but yah i think HRE deserves to be in before Bulgaria and Belarus.

The HRE deserves it, it doesn't deserve it, you accept it, you don't accept it, you are happy with it...you change your mind every hour, don't you?

Technichly they were. all of a vassals territory is part of the vassals master. If that's wrong then i'm confused what a vassal is then...

Technically the relationship between a vassal and a lord is a "treaty" between two free persons which includes rights and duties on both sides like assistance in a war and protection.

We had a big role in it, nobody can deny that.

Perhaps you should check why the Mongols really left Europe even though they beat a Polish-German army and a Hungarian army almost at the same time. Pretty interesting why and how Europe was saved.

 

[sneaky]

The HRE is in, because Charlemagne deserves it. The HRE itself was a long lasting, pretty big and fairly important empire that could have been included for in CIV for sure.
But it is Charlemagne that really makes this civilization iconic and interesting. Personally, I'm glad he is in, but if I only focus on the nation he represents, I would rather have had Austria, Poland or a non-European civ instead.
Don't start with why don't we add Charlemagne as a German or French leader argument though, because that's just silly.

 

[azzaman333]

HRE had colonies? I know germanyhad but the HRE?

Besides Courland!!! remember!

Not so much that the HRE had colonies, but the HRE had much more influence on the colonial empires of England, Spain, Netherlands, etc.

 

[TheLastOne36]

But it wasn't Poles who did it and the colonies didn't belong to Poland itself. Do you need to claim the deeds of others to make your country important?

That could work both ways. It just means that poland didn't colonize, BUT all the achievements by polish people in france, italy, america, canada, australia and england are polish achievements and not the countries achievements. Just meaning that Poland impacted the history of the world all the more.

The HRE deserves it, it doesn't deserve it, you accept it, you don't accept it, you are happy with it...you change your mind every hour, don't you?

You don't understand....

Technically the relationship between a vassal and a lord is a "treaty" between two free persons which includes rights and duties on both sides like assistance in a war and protection

Fine.

Perhaps you should check why the Mongols really left Europe even though they beat a Polish-German army and a Hungarian army almost at the same time. Pretty interesting why and how Europe was saved.

That khan died and that other khan was drunk yah i know. Maybe i should've said Poland played a big role in trying to stop it... *yah i messed up there*

 

[Legat]

That could work both ways. It just means that poland didn't colonize, BUT all the achievements by polish people in france, italy, america, canada, australia and england are polish achievements and not the countries achievements. Just meaning that Poland impacted the history of the world all the more.

You pervert the facts as it fits your nationalism.

You don't understand....

...nor do you.

That khan died and that other khan was drunk yah i know. Maybe i should've said Poland played a big role in trying to stop it... *yah i messed up there*

That's how it always ends. You claim something, it's proven wrong and in the end you say "yah i messed up there", "I don't know why I wrote this" or something like that.

I will heed what's written in your signature. It's pointless to continue this discussion with someone who can't be taken seriously.

 

[DrewTate]

great quote here: "Lasted longer in WW2 then france," haha that is funny.

this, also, was very funny: "Though a Polish Calvary or French rifleman with 100% chance of withdrawal (flee) would be good as well as an additional unit."

Not so much the Polish part because their cavalry were facing German tanks and hey...that's not very fun for the Poles in that situation. But the French Rifleman with 100% withdraw (flee) chance is comedy.