DocT4-How to Rise as a Ruler (RaR Training SG)

Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
5,032
Location
Köln, Cologne, Colonia. Finally.
DocT4_start2.jpg

Civ:
Tibet (REL/SCI); UU: Ghurka; 3.3.2 Pike replacement, requires Iron, ignores movement costs of Mountains & Hills

Game Settings:
Large, 70% water continents, wet, temperate, 3 billions; roaming Barbarians, normal AI aggression
Monarch level

Sign-ups:
Doc Tsiolkovski (trainer)
Pfeffersack (trainer)
denyd
Gyathaar
Cizzlewalk
Tinkez
Disenfrancised

Vostos (?)

Room 1 or 2 more trainees!

The Save
 
Technical stuff:

*IMPORTANT: This game is already based on the soon – to –be –available RaR1.01, addressing many reported (and a few new) bugs. Lots of small changes, but nothing affecting the early game here.*

You are required to add the line NoAIPatrol=0 to your conquest.ini file (see Fix the Barbarians for further information).

Rules:
Usual SG code of conduct.
Also, respect the rate cap: Most Governments have a maximum % spent for Science/Luxury/Taxes. By adjusting the slider(s) every turn, you can override that – it will be automatically reset in the interturn, but after your income was calculated. Of course, this is not allowed.

The first 50 turns:
Since I think there are several possible ways very early, and I also think this is one of the most important and interesting set of turns, EVERY player should get a chance to play those turns. Thus, please download the save and play your own 50 turns. Keep a detailed log – it’s not so important where you move the Worker on turn 8, but I want to know especially:
·Where did you found a city, and why.
·What did you research, and why.
·What did you build in a city, and why.

Note we will not target for the Great Library!

Once you’ve played, post your log, save, and a screenshot here (please don’t use IMG tags, but URL; this will allow it the other players to visit this thread and avoid to see something before they should).

*Discussion about the opening moves is absolutely encouraged!*

I will look at all games, and we will discuss which one we’ll continue as a standard SG then.
(Btw, we may decide to use that concept later again.)


Note this is a completely random map. I only played into it far enough to know it is doable. For that reason, we will of course not play on with my 50 turns – you simply cannot unlearn. I did, however, play them, just to have a reference which tech level + empire size should be reached.
 
How to Rise as a Ruler

A RaR Manual

Chapter 1: In the Beginning

On map settings


Goal is an interesting game with a competitive AI. If you want an easy game, you can always choose ‘No Barbarians’ on a 80% water Archipelago, and pick the only SEA Civ against nothing but EXP opponents…

For surprisingly many reasons, the usual rule of “Medium everything=Balanced game” is a not entirely true for RaR/ DyP.

*Map Size
A matter of personnel taste.

*Land Form and Water Coverage
With no generic ships before Longboats able to even enter Ocean tiles, islands are more isolated here (especially for the AI).

*Humidity
Rivers/ Lakes are less important in the early game; cities will hardly grow large enough to require an Aquaduct before Construction is known, and you cannot irrigate before the second era anyway.
And, Coastal cities can build Ports, which are cheaper than Aquaducts.

*Climate
You cannot found cities on Tundra and Desert. That makes the extreme settings tougher.

*Age
Most important issue. Grassland in the unmodded game rules – in RaR, it cannot be mined; thus, an all-Grassland start is not that great. Then, some terrain types are way better in RaR. Mountains are superior to Hills for production, and Jungle is a quite good terrain; it cannot be cleared before Industrial Age, but gives a nice 2fpt/1spt right away. Plus many resources.
Since the human player tends to restart until he gets a decent start anyway, young (3 billion) worlds are usually more interesting – sure, some AI Civs will end with ugly starts, but some will get really nice ones.

*Barbarians
The unmodded Barbarians are, depending on the level you play, either a nice target practice and source of extra gold and Techs for the Human and AI Civs, or only for either the Human or the AI. Because of that, most players prefer no Barbarians for the higher levels (unless you play an EXP Civ, of course).
In RaR, the Barbarians are quite threatening… 4.3.2 Riders! In other words, Warriors and Archers have a hard time against them, so Barbs are a nice way to help with the additional AI units on the higher levels.
Also, all Civs have access to Scouts, and Curraghs are 0.0.1, so they don’t count as military units, allowing the Human to pop huts without risk of getting Barbarians until you start building Warriors/ Tribal Guards.

To summarize that, I suggest to choose moderate/moderate/young worlds with roaming Barbarians as standard settings; either continents, or Pangea/Archipelago depending on the Civ you want to play.


Picking a Civ

DyP already had 31 Civs, designed for a better distribution on World Maps. RaR uses the same selection, so none of the new c3c Civs is included.
Also, some Civs have different traits compared to c3c. Most unique units are the same (exception is America – while you can argue how useful Naval UUs are, F-15s as UU plain simply suck), but may differ in their stats.

Traits:
DyP and even more RaR wants to make the traits feel even more different, especially in the early game. And, some traits (especially AGR) are a bit unbalanced in the unmodded game.
For that reason, most traits offer right from the start a ‘Trait-specific Unit’ (TSU) or ‘Trait-Specific Improvement’ (TSI), to either help them, or, in case of AGR, weaken them a bit:

SCI:
Wiseman TSI, a 20sp scientific city improvement (no culture, though). Considering the amount of scientific buildings, the impacts of Wisemen in the late game isn’t that big, but a single Wiseman in your capital drastically redouces the research time for the first techs.

COM:
Counselor TSI, additional Courthouse. Again, the impact on the late game is limited, but for the first Governments with their horrible corruption, those things rule.

MIL:
Champions (2.1.1) instead of Warriors. On Monarch and below, MIL Civs are often able to overrun a neighbour in the very first turns. ‘Always War’ Games are quite fun as well…
And, since Barracks aren’t available before late Ancient, the more frequent promotions really help.

EXP:
Rangers (0.1.2 ‘All Terrain as Grassland') instead of Scouts. Combined with the proposed Young Worlds, contacts and exploration are a lot easier for EXP Civs. The defence value may sound meagre, but since Rangers tend to retreat when attacked, their survivability against Barbarians is pretty high.
Also, EXP Civs start with Domestication (Horses!), for me the best starting tech at all.

SEA:
Curraghs are only available to SEA Civs. No other ship before Longboats (except for the Polynesian UU) can even enter Ocean tiles…

IND:
Serfs (instead of Workers), cost no upkeep. Not only do you need less workforce, they even don’t cost you any gpt.

REL:
Nothing. Considering you simply must revolt at least two times, and you have a selection of 13 different Governments, REL Civs really need no help.

AGR:
Cultivators/ Hardy Cultivators instead of Clans, cost 1 population point more. Because of the way the tile penalty works, AGR cities grow insanely faster under Chiefdom than those of non-AGR Civs. An AGR city without any food bonus grows form size one to size two in 10 turns (20 turns for other Civs). Adjacent to fresh water, it’ll grow in 7 turns!
While this at first looked like a huge balance problem, the Cultivators in fact made AGR much more realistic: You will have settlements that are a lot larger with all the benefits in no time; expansion, however, isn’t that much faster. Note also the smaller AGR bonus (+1 Food from irrigated Desert) has a weaker effect in RaR, since citizens consume more food, and many other tiles yield more fpt.


So, how strong a Civ is surely may depend on the map settings, but there really are no weak traits in RaR. Nevertheless, for the highest levels AGR still is the trait of choice.


To be continued.
 
Having just played a couple of practice games, I can offer only a couple of tidbits I have discovered.

1. Taking on barbarians with ancient age units is futile. If you can ding the land units with a couple of cats before attacking with swords you've got a chance, else just move your units out of the way and let them have some gold to go away. Corallary: Try to eliminate all barbarian villages before changing ages.

2. Getting out of Chiefdom wasn't as big a change and the usual despostism->monarchy/republic, but it did help.

3. Since it's not possible to do anything except road with workers in the early game, finding a food bonus (and find some shields) is critical to fast growth.

4. Pick your settler type carefully. Some types (costing more) only take 1 pop point. Some can't cross jungles/mountains.

5. Beyond 3000 BC, undefended cities are a "attack me now" red flag to the AI.

6. You MUST check every AI every turn for possible tech trades. I went from even on tech with the three AI on my continent, to down 3 techs in a single turn.

7. The minimum research is less than the standard 4 turns.

8. For Tibet (religious), Monoliths (comes with masonry) are cheap culture improvements.

9. Whenever possible, try to build your military units in the capital. It's the only city with a barracks (veteran units) for a long time.

10. With so many available techs, you can probably get to philosophy before any of the AI, which means a free tech.

11. Some old luxuries are no longer luxuries and there are some new ones.
 
also played a couple of games (monarch/emperor) and my tidbits are as follows

the AI seems to be more aggressive, maybe due to more resources / luxuries

it is often worth moving the original settler to find a bonus food, in one of my games I settled in 3500BC! and the original settler has 2 movement points ignoring terrain, however if not research the techs for other bonus foods

artillery in the late game really rocks, even more so

armies are no so unbalancing while there is an early limit of 2 per army and they are often attacked

don't neglect military, when the AI comes for you, they really come and the attacking units always have a higher attack than the defenders, the wars can be gruesome if not careful

it is really possible to build up powerhouse cities / economy and science cities / civilization, this is where the human ends up with the advantage as there are many many science buildings and many economy buildings (however having gold helps)

it is more playable than C3C if you don't have iron /saltpetre though not so pleasant if you don't have either of horses, elephants or camels

golden ages are 30 turns and normally in a government

It is an extremely enjoyable and deep mod
 
Having already played as Tibet (grr.), I've seen what they can do. On monarch level, as I stated in my first post in this thread, I got 9 SGLs... 9!!!! Those early Wisemen are amazing. I also noticed that even though we aren't AGR, our REL ability to change government so soon helped me in the long run. As soon as I could I went to despotism and had 8 cities by the time my Russian and German opponents had 4!

*Note: Following the "dead end" techs (i.g. the whole top row of naval units) can be good in a harder level game, but here you're better off going for regular techs (mainly non-wonder techs, AI simply don't want to stray that way all the time). My zwei pfennig.

P.S. Hey Doc, since I'm not new to DyP/RaR, I don't mind playing as a trainer, but if you just need me to play, watch and comment here and there I don't mind that either. Just curious.
 
I've played RaR as Tibet. Pretty powerful if played right.
I'll give you a good 50 turns and all the info you need. Although keep in mind I'm not as good as many of the players on this forum.....but I'll do my part.
 
@cizzlewalk: I wasn't sure how familiar you are with RaR by now - consider we were beta-testing RaR for more than half a year. Pfeffersack and will play just like anybody else, but as trainers we want to stay a bit in the background when it's about making choices. Don't think you need to do that as well.
However, I surely see you as a veteran player, and in the rotation we will take care to alternate between Vets and Newbies.

@Bouchart: You're welcome to submit a report, and I will review it, but unless someone drops out, there is no open place in the SG :( . Sorry, but 8 is really enough normally...

On tidbits:
Lots of good points!
However, I cannot agree with Denyd on one issue:
Getting out of Chiefdom wasn't as big a change and the usual despostism->monarchy/republic, but it did help.
The difference his HUGE. You may not notive it that much if you have lots of food boni and low production. In any other case, the only reason not to head for Dyna like nothing else are the more expensive Settlers.

btw, for those we played Tibet before: The Ghurka was buggy, it was always inteded to be a 3.3.2 units...
 
One point from Pfeffersack's log must be answered ASAP:
reason: starting position to bad for founding a city, IMO

This is no start form my collection of 'Ugly Starts' :eek:!

In fact, it is a pretty outstanding RaR starting spot, whether you just found on spot or move a few tiles along the river. You have immediate access to a Foodbonus and Luxury (the Fruits). A city in that area will be highly productive, able to grow slowly but steadily, and net a hell lot of commerce.
Feel free to move your Tribe a few tiles, but no need to move out of that area.
 
Checking in.

I will play my turns a bit later this week, unfortunately I'm tied down with work for a couple of days and the evenings are full of plans also.

I've played one complete game of RaR as Sioux, so I'm familiarized myself with the mod a bit. I'll try to get my turnlog here in a couple of days.
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
One point from Pfeffersack's log must be answered ASAP:


This is no start form my collection of 'Ugly Starts' :eek:!

In fact, it is a pretty outstanding RaR starting spot, whether you just found on spot or move a few tiles along the river. You have immediate access to a Foodbonus and Luxury (the Fruits). A city in that area will be highly productive, able to grow slowly but steadily, and net a hell lot of commerce.
Feel free to move your Tribe a few tiles, but no need to move out of that area.

My intention was not to say it is too bad in general for buidling a city and I wouldn't call it ugly, too (but I should have made it clearer what I mean).I agree it is a very nice start if someone follows the way of building a city quickly - my playing style in RAR is usually scouting a couple of turns with my tribe, hoping to find a better location (I tend to avoid jungle as capital location, because of the disease risk).Sometimes I'm lucky, sometimes I fail and I agree, I wasn't too lucky here.
 
As said,there is more than one 'correct' way. I just wanted to emphasize I didn't pick a challenging start, but a really good one (you're right about the disease, but someone not familiar with RaR terrain might actually think Jungles are as bad as unmodded).

Anyway, you make one real mistake, and if you do this kind of opening frequently, your luck must be pretty unverschämt:
You can very well get Barbarians from a hut when you have no city...and Tribes count as military units - they have a Def value ;) .
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
(...) Anyway, you make one real mistake, and if you do this kind of opening frequently, your luck must be pretty unverschämt: You can very well get Barbarians from a hut when you have no city...and Tribes count as military units - they have a Def value ;) .

:eek: Than I was really lucky...I have done that often in the past and never end up with barbs (even on higher levels).Though it was one of the special rules concerning huts, but I guess I have to read Oysteins fantastic article again...thanks for pointing that out!

EDIT: After visiting Oysteins article again, I am even more confused.... :confused:

Barbarians:
--Player must not have Expansionist trait.
--There must not be a city within a 1-tile radius.
--The player must have at least 1 city.
--The player must have at least 1 military unit.
--The unit popping the hut must not have the "All Terrain As Roads" ability.

The third condition isn't fulfilled if I am scouting with my start tribe (without having a city then, of course)...or I am understanding something completly wrong?
 
Well... if that tribe was your ONLY unit (no city to have yet been built), then barbs do not come from hut until you've made your erste Stadt and produced a military unit of ur own, even if that unit was another defensive tribe. That's what I've gathered from playing 2 or 3 times w/ RaR at least.

@Doc Thanks again, I see where you're heading w/ the testing... so I actually like the idea of being a trainer and taking turns playing too :banana: .
Also, sorry for being impatient, but are we waiting on ALL the team to submit a report before we begin or have we yet to set a starting time?
 
Pfeffersack: Wasn't completely clear - I was origininally referring to that part when you ran around with the tribe from the hut and a Scout (learned that the hard way :mad: ).
But now, I'm not really sure about the part with the city. How can Oystein prove that? I mean, most other situations happen in about every game, this one is a rare event, and testing cannot exclude it-

Cizzlewalk: I don't want to come up with a specific date, however nothing prevents those who already played to post their report here and open the discussion (I only want URL tags for screenshots, so someone trying to avoid spoilers can choose to not read the reports; you simply cannot forget what you've seen).
 
DocT: That's probably why I didn't notice the change as much. One game I had 2 cows on a river and the other was a wheat & sugar start. In both I had a couple of flood plain & grassland cites (total city count of 6-7) when I made my original switch.

I'll start on this tonight after Bede03.
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:

[b]Sign-ups:[/b]

tmarcl (big '?')

[/QUOTE]

Eek. I've not even seen this thread before today. Unfortunately, I'm going to say no, for now, as I don't know how good my access is going to be after this month. I will be watching the thread, though.​
 
@ Doc TS: If this is possible, I would like to participate in one of Your future RaR
SGs. :mischief:

About myself: playing PTW, c3c @ regent level for about year. Still in process of
finishing my first regent RaR.

P.S. Right now iam at the edge of medieval/industrial ages, and iam kind of curious about all the changes that await me in industrial ages (my Sphinks, SunTzu, Chichen Itza, Hanging Gardens will become obsolete :mad: ), so
any suggestions will be appreciated. :D

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"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will."
-Vincent T. Lombardi
 
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