1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Does “random” change its definition as you level up?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Beerchugger, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. Beerchugger

    Beerchugger Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    76
    I have finally moved my way up to Immortal and have noticed something strange. Random, which in lower levels seemed to mean that you had an equal chance of something occurring, seems to change as you level up. And not in a good way. Few examples below:

    I seem to get a very tough opponent next to me every time now. If I play Caesar I get someone like Sitting Bull and his Dog Solders next to me nearly every time (perfect counter for me Praetorian rush). If I play Inca I get Monty, Van Orange gets Shaka/Toku (yes both most times), etc. And it’s not that this occurs sometimes, it’s nearly every game for me now. I cannot even remember the last game I played where I had Washington for example, and at lower levels I used to see him at the same rate as Shaka. You know, a “random” leader lol.

    My starts seem terrible a good portion of the time. When I am lucky enough to get a decent capital start on Fractal I nearly always am on my own island or with one other one AI. This while the others get to share an island with 4 neighbors and have a tech fest. Statically speaking don’t I have a 5 in 7 chance of spawning on that island? It just seems my “random” spawn chance is no longer random and now is somewhat against me.

    Even the “random” number generator seems bugged now. For example: Today I had a stack of Calvary attack my stack of Infantry on a hill. He should lose a decent amount of them to “random” number right? Well not anymore, of the 11 battles they withdrew or killed my units 9 of them. I reload just to see if that was real and this time he withdraws/wins 10 times!? How is that random? And my once fun catapult rushes no longer seem to work since I lose nearly every single battle under 50%. Even at even odds I seem to lose a lot more than I win.

    I don’t know, I just thought that as I worked my way up the ladder the game would give me a more challenging AI, not just cheat me in every “random” way it could. I kind of wish I could play Monarch again with a tougher AI than constantly getting a starting position with only one plains cow and desert all around me, usually on an isolated island, where when I attack even at 70% I know I have a good chance of losing. Getting kind of annoying to be honest.

    So my question is does the AI “game” the system to work against you at higher levels, or have I just suddenly gotten extremely unlucky? And either way does anyone have any ideas on how to keep the game fun at higher levels; I am getting kind of tired of getting screwed over by “luck” suddenly.
     
  2. cain3456

    cain3456 King

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2010
    Messages:
    613
    AFAIK the combat calculator doesn't change, but some things do get tougher. You will get not-so-good land, and goody huts will yield less than optimal results. Many players insist on playing without goodys altogether, and you do know that you can choose your opponents, right?
     
  3. Beerchugger

    Beerchugger Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    76
    Thanks for the reply Cain, feel a little better now that I know that the game is just designed this way (in some circumstances). For a short time there I thought I just became an unlucky person lol.

    I guess I will need to start to regenerate my map now, I am used to playing every one I get. Curious, is that considered "cheating" by the community like reloading the game?

    Turning off huts is a great idea, and I may also start to choose leaders as well. I used to enjoy the occasional "Shaka" challenge before, but its getting kind of annoying to see him (or someone like him) next to me most games now. Does anyone have a true "random" leader selector?
     
  4. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

    Joined:
    May 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,677
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Orlando, Florida
    Also, you can make lower level games harder by checking 'Aggressive AI', 'Raging Barbarians', or 'Always War'.
    This way the higher level annoying changes won't apply, but the game won't be too easy either.

    I have the last two on my current game on Monarch level.
    It becomes a challange to build wonders like on an easier game and usually best to rush one opponent and harass as many as you can of the rest.
    'Always War' lets you enter another empire's territory and steal their workers with ease, when using woods2 warriors & axemen.
     
  5. GGracchus

    GGracchus Tribune of Rome

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,377
    The only thing that changes about the AI is that their building and research modificators are lower as you go up the difficulties, meaning the harder it gets the less it will cost the AI to build a building or research a tech. The AI also gets more starting units and techs, culminating on deity where it gets 2 settlers+worker and a bunch of other units.
     
  6. Beerchugger

    Beerchugger Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    76
    Thanks for the responses so far everyone!

    GGracchus: Wondering how you feel about Cains comment regarding getting "not-so-good land", because in my experiences so far that definitely seems to be the case. Not that it’s bad every time, but I seem to get worse land on average than I got before (monarch vs. immortal).
     
  7. s.bernbaum

    s.bernbaum Mostly lurking

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,780
    Location:
    The wilds of Montana
    In a discussion thread during this past winter, the subject of how the game allocates starting positions was discussed thoroughly. I don't recall off hand if it was in General Discussions or Strategy & Tips. However, the summary is that the game randomly assigns the starting location. It then evaluates the position. If the position does not meet minimal criteria, including water access (river, lake, or ocean) at least one good food resource, and at least one other resource ( and a few other requirements) a new starting location is chosen, again randomly, and the process is repeated. This applies to the AI starting cities and the player starting city location…. at Settler. As you go up through the levels, the list of criteria for evaluation gets shorter and shorter for the player but is unchanged for the AI. So, if it seems that the AI is getting better starting locations than you are at higher levels, that is because it is true!
     
  8. GGracchus

    GGracchus Tribune of Rome

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,377
    Ideally you would have to dive into the code in order to determine if the map generator got worse every difficulty. What s.bernbaum says sounds right, but I haven't done the code diving to confirm that.
     
  9. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,047
    Location:
    In Dystopia
    You are a unlucky person, if you are really getting the combat odds you say you do. Combat calculator does not lie (or at least it does not actively deceive you).
     
  10. Beerchugger

    Beerchugger Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    76
    OK, so it sounds like there was some real reasons I was starting to feel the game was “working” against me to an extent. I have to say, knowing that the game will start you off on lower quality land due to level was extremely helpful and helps me prepare for it. We did not really address the starting civs next to you, but I am getting the feeling that the game also works on that area in order to keep the game fun. How easy would it be to Preatorian rush everyone around you if they were all non-aggressive/non-protective. Fun yes, but easy as heck lol.

    I ran some tests yesterday to get an idea of the combat odds and overall they seem to be working. The problem is really more one of perspective, it seems in higher levels I am fighting things like longbows a lot more than I am used to with catapults for example. And while pults can have 33% vs archers (or higher when non-hill), vs bows it’s a whole different story. I was fighting battles between nearly 0%-2% at the start, and its really hard to win those. So while my catapult rushes worked well on lower levels I need to start them earlier on immortal due to a much higher AI tech pace.

    I appreciate the help/tips with this folks, it really made a difference. But I want you all to know that I still plan to get pissed off when I lose several 70% battles in a row. :lol:
     
  11. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13,818
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    No, no and no :p

    I don't know from where people get that idea ( besides selective memory ), but the map generator is dificulty independent .... in other words, the starts do not go worse as you play harder levels. And even if they did, you could gen starts in lower levels and WB them to higher ones ...
     
  12. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,874
    Location:
    Exiled from Fribbulus Xax
    I can attest to the existence of the thread that s. bernbaum had mentioned. :yup:
    But despite fervent searching it remains elusive.

    I did find this thread that the OP might enjoy.
     

Share This Page