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Does anyone else hate gunpowder?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Kyroshill, Jan 25, 2009.

  1. Kyroshill

    Kyroshill Huh?

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    I gotta tell ya.... I can see blasting powder as a dwarf-specific late-game resource that improves mining output.... and maybe (just MAYBE) some form of improved seige weapon.....

    But as far as everybody getting guns.....

    Then once the AI has guns..... that's all they build.

    Kinda loses the "fantasy" feel when everybody is running with muskets and cannon..... American Civil War anyone?
     
  2. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    Muskets and early Cannons aren't even close to American Civil War. More like The Three Musketeers.

    And I still see archmages etc.

    I like the slight switch of the athmosphere in the end from "sword and sorcery" to "gunpowder and sorcery". Makes you feel the development.
     
  3. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    I agree with the op. Archabus spamming in the late game makes the mod lose its flavor. They should be a national unit (4 allowed) to prevent the perversion of Erebus.
     
  4. Kyroshill

    Kyroshill Huh?

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    I could go for a national unit limit.... would at least limit the spam
     
  5. JFSebastian

    JFSebastian Scout

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    I think its great. I like the change of flavor from all the fantasy clones out there. The Arquebus is an extremely primitive firearm and I think the flavor may start to gel a little better once more civs have some unique model art done for their arquebus units.

    I can definitely understand the desire to not have them though. For those who are trying to recreate the feel of their favorite fantasy novels and movies, gunpowder is a bit out of place. However, for others that are tired of the same ol' fantasy experience, the addition of a little early tech is a nice change. Mixing genres is something I've started to appreciate more and more as I get older. I really enjoyed the basic premise of the video game "Arcanum" (mix of sword and sorcery with steam power and gun slinging) and thought the sci-fi series "Firefly" was genius.

    It could be said that the Lanun are almost as out of place as blasting powder in regards to flavor and probably for reasons similar to yours I find the bow wielding pirates to be distractingly strange creations. However, the fact that this game has pirates in it is one of the reasons I truly love it. Its so incredibly fun and slightly mixed up and yet they really seem to fit nicely from my perspective.

    It should be noted that a fair number of civs are unable to build arquebus and canon. Perhaps there could be an option to disable arquebus and canon completely for those that find them grating on the nerves?
     
  6. Kyroshill

    Kyroshill Huh?

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    In most of my games it seems that every AI that can beelines BP and then spams Arquebusiers and Cannon.... so by Turn 350 that's all I see....

    In my last game.... the Amurites were asking me for Sorcery on Turn 530, but had 30 muskets in their largest city and were using cannons to guard workers!

    The Amurites!!.... so once they discovered flaming minerals they discarded all their other magic?
     
  7. Swodhawk

    Swodhawk Chieftain

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    Fully support you Kyroshill.
    In my games I disactivate the Blasting Powder tech.
     
  8. xalien

    xalien Prince

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    Yep, I agree. Death to the gunpowder :spear:
     
  9. KillerClowns

    KillerClowns Emperor

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    [Caresses musket while cackling slighty]
    My... precious...
    :p

    Seriously, I do like the feeling of development it gives; when you go from stone hammers to muskets, you feel like you've achieved something. They also play a tactical role in breaking down sieges that were previously unbreakable and lessening the impact of magic, as befits Erebus at the end of the Age of Rebirth.
     
  10. Brokenbone

    Brokenbone Prince

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    Also not a huge fan of gunpowder in the general fantasy setting, although the idea of it being available at a "trickle" and unreliable level is something some D&D settings address in an acceptable way (take the difference between some classic settings saying "oh dear, look what the gnomes have invented" and a setting that's flooded with gunpowder and steampunky technology, like Iron Kingdoms or something).

    Again, not sure how FFH dark fantasy would prefer to treat it, guess trusting in the mod designers. Crossbows you'd figure proliferate in ways that arquebuses, hand cannons or other primitive firearms wouldn't, yet it's crossbows subject to the national unit caps, and arquebuses not.

    I do feel though that the feel of the module takes a hit when you invade someone's continent and see dozens of arquebus units wandering around, remember laughing about that with the Grigori in one of the scenarios, Blood of Angels I think. So much for Dragon Slayers and other flavorful units, it's all pure arquebus by late game. Oh well.

    Maybe national unit caps in cases make sense, or case by case figuring on whether a given civ (like the Luchiurp) need some "specials" tied to blasting powder, or heroes like Teutorix ought seem more unique if there's very few reliable guns in circulation, don't know. Special/rarity considerations may help preserve the dark fantasy feel a little more, even into the late game.
     
  11. jwin

    jwin Warlord

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    I think the crossbow and musket should be switched, making the musket more powerful and having a national unit, and putting crossbows more similar to longbows, just with different bonuses.
     
  12. Hawkwood

    Hawkwood Man-at-Arms

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    While I'm in favour limiting them, I'm not in favour of making them more powerful.
    Arquebuses are primitive gunpowder and it's refreshing to see fantasy where gunpowder isn't treated as all and powerful, when it couldn't pierce good plate in real life.
     
  13. Psycho_Ivan

    Psycho_Ivan Warlord

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    The Crossbow is indeed a VERY strong weapon. Easy to fire, load, and dealing an amazing damage output for such a simple weapon... Technically it makes a bit less sense for them to be a national unit, though with how strong they are right now it's far from unfair.
     
  14. HadesScorn

    HadesScorn Warlord

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    Historically speaking, there is precedent for the National Limit on the crossbow.

    Pope Innocent II banned the use of crossbows against christians at one of his religious councils. There was a solid reason for this. A crossbow required very little training or investment. It could however allow a single discontent peasant to kill a knight who had trained for most of his life. This would not only weaken the church against its religious enemies, but would remove a source of funding for it as well.

    As for the widespread use of musketmen, I would like to see some kind of mechanic/function that caused their power to fluctuate randomly from turn to turn or battle to battle, to reflect the experimental nature of gunpowder. Sure, they *could* be the most powerful unit on a given turn. Or they could be wiped out by a group of axemen.

    Again, there is some historical basis for this. Most early gunpowder units were highly inaccurate and vulnerable. Their chief advantage lay in how quickly they could be trained compared to Longbowmen. Really, the first point-and-click interface. However, the lack of training meant that they were pretty much useless in close battles. Also, this is prior to the invention of the socketed bayonet, so they essentially would be wielding large clubs. Because of this, most early formations relied on the heavy presence of pikemen to strengthen the formation. Units like the Spanish Tercio used gunpowder to shock the enemy formation and pikes to crush through it. It also made the gunpowder unit far less vulnerable to cavalry charges.

    So, gunpowder units were poorly trained [some notable exceptions including Gustavus Adolphus's forces]. They used unreliable technology, which could be rendered useless by prevading damp or light rain. And they required significant strengthening with pikes to become real forces on the battlefield.

    Suggestions:

    -Tercio National Unit. Available at Gunpowder, Warfare and Mithril Weapons [or where-ever phalanx is at]. Sacrifice a Phalanx and Gunman to create a Tercio. It receives a bonus against Cavalry and in open-ground combat [anything but forests and jungles], with a penalty on city attack. Ups the base power of Gunmen and removes then new penalty mechanic.
    -Lower strength of Gunmen to 9, make them slightly cheaper than Champions. A better choice if you don't have mithril, but a slightly worse choice if you do.
    -New mechanic. "New-fangled" [until someone comes up with a real name]. Functioning like the old/new crazed mechanic, has a chance every turn to grant a promotion to the unit.
    +Bad Weather: Lowers strength by -5. Flavor: reflects rain and damp making their weapons essentially expensive clubs. Low chance of occurring.
    +They expect us to what?: Lowers strength by -2. Flavor: reflects the low levels of training and morale found in the early gunpowder armies. Moderate chance of occurring.
    +Look at 'em run!: Raises strength by +1. Flavor: early firearms could often break opponents who were unused to the mid-range devastation of a proper volley. Moderate chance of occurring.
    +The whites of their eyes: Raises strength by +3. Flavor: Under good strategists, gunpowder could carve a swathe of destruction across conventional forces. Low chance of occurring.

    This makes heavy investment in Gunmen a gamble, as it should be for a fantasy world experiencing the first scientific revolution. While your uber-promoted man may be a terror on the battlefield when its sunny out, he's next to worthless when Armageddon causes a few sprinkles from all the evaporating lakes. The penalties are weighted down more than up so that you are encouraged to move your gunmen with support from other units, just in case your entire stack decides today *isn't* a good day to die.
     
  15. Jabie

    Jabie Wanted in Monte Carlo...

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    Perhaps the Pinch promotion (+25% vs Gunpowder Units) could be added at Blasting Powder too. The graphics and code can be stolen from the base game so it shouldn't be too tricky to add it to the main game to promote a little more troop diversity.
     
  16. Hawkwood

    Hawkwood Man-at-Arms

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    This may be more suited for a modmod than FfH itself.

    That said, I really, really like this idea, and if made into a modmod (preferably one you can combine with others) I would download it. It represents early gunpowder well and with the lower strength I think the AI will spam them less.
     
  17. Neomega

    Neomega Deity

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    I think I'll agree. But the cannon, if limited, should be more powerful. Right now, the cannon graphics could use a change, its a little too industrial, I think it should look more like a "royal" cannon, ornately carved.
     
  18. solanacea

    solanacea Chieftain

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    I think making gunpowder a dwarf only technology makes sense. Still, it seems like a rip-off from warcraft III. I wouldn't mind if it's deleted completely.
     
  19. mimic

    mimic Magic Box

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    And waste the new unit art for Arquebusiers? HadesScorn's ideas are great.
     
  20. Kyroshill

    Kyroshill Huh?

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    I really like the idea of a mechanic making early muskets unreliable.... as pointed out, the technology was chancy at best, and the user poorly trained much of the time.

    Even with "training".... early muzzle flashes required the shooter to close his eyes before firing to avoid blindness.... hardly a reliable aiming technique.
     

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