Does anyone invest in religion if NOT going for religious victory?

[Tiger Genocide]

I go for it on King, but only if there is a good reason. For example if I have terrible production around me and I want to war early and I am not using a Tier 1 civ, I might get that Ancient and Classical unit production boost.

Anytime I play Arabia, I rush for Jesuit Education like a madman. I pretty much want religion playing as Norway (only if I can get Fisherman Production Pantheon first), or Spain.

On Emperor and Immortal, I ignore it all together. On those difficulties I only go for domination. If I get one, it is because I took enough cities with Holy Districts. Even then unless there is something good left (like Jesuit Education), I might grab tithe or something that can give me a tiny boost on something gold, science, or culture and pick that. Most of the time there is not much left to choose from. After some point I will grab a city that has Jesuit Education in it's religion, then I just faith buy whatever I can, and maybe convert some main cities to that religion and faith buy a few more.

Honestly they should rework or nerf Jesuit Education by taking out the Theatre District buildings faith buying. Culture could use it's own religious faith buying tenet. Jesuit Education is so damn powerful it's ridiculous. Sometimes I go out of my way to kill the civ that took that in their religion, so that I can keep fighting and not fall behind on science and culture.

 

[spfun]

Never

Other than a few religious games I don't build holy sites.

 

[Gabhar]

I can never really justify building holy sites, the opportunity cost seems pretty excessive. Hopefully the next expansion reforms the religious game to make it more relevant outside the victory path.

 

[kaspergm]

Honestly they should rework or nerf Jesuit Education by taking out the Theatre District buildings faith buying. Culture could use it's own religious faith buying tenet. Jesuit Education is so damn powerful it's ridiculous.

Yes, I agree, this should be two beliieffs. Either would be powerful enough that you'd want them given they match your victory path or just general strategy.

 

[Wingednosering]

I typically avoid it, but it really depends. I think there are tons of non-RV bonuses around for religion that can make it quite worthwhile. Divine Spark alone is usually worth the effort.

The religious buildings and warrior monks aren't bad. You can also give yourself holy site culture bombs to steal territory if necessary.

Inquisitors are situationally useful if somebody is close to getting an RV against you.

Theocracy + faith is the easiest way to get a DV though, so that's probably the single greatest use of faith for non-RV purposes. There is situational use in faith-purchasing universities as well.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I never go for religion victory, so yea.

 

[kryat]

I don’t tend to persue religious victories, but I usually try to have a religion, especially if I’m playing as someone like Russia, Japan, or Indonesia who have an easier time generating faith. Since missionaries and apostles don’t consume production, (aside from building the holy site and their buildings), spreading religion relatively cheap, and I’m in the opinion that any benefit is better than no benefit, as long as the overall yield is greater than the cost.

 

[liv]

I don't think benefits would cover the cost if we looked at it closely.
You invest in a district (that effectly replaces another district you could have instead) and the buildings for it
Very few of the beliefs are really worth that kind of investment I think

 

[Stringer1313]

Thanks for all the thread replies, this is really helpful. I should have clarified by saying that when I meant "invest in religion" I don't just mean building holy sites and getting faith (I agree faith is an important resource), but *actually committing to founding a religion* AND/OR *actually spending resources (faith) to spread the religion or stamp out rival religions in your territory.* My question is whether it's worth spending faith on missionaries and apostles and such to ensure that any particular faith is in a lot of cities, when you are NOT going for a religious victory.

It sounds so far like people think it's situationally useful for the Follower Beliefs, but I haven't heard anyone say that they spread the religion for the Founder Beliefs. I really think they should make the Founder Beliefs stronger, even if slightly.

 

[agonistes]

I have found Feed the World combined with the holy building that gives food to be extremely powerful. I've posted this in a few places, and people are probably bored of seeing it, so I won't go into details. But I suggest you try it. Try it with Khmer if you have access to them.

I usually go river goddess - feed the world - ghuarda (sp?) - defenders - tithe. Certain starts may cause me to switch out river goddess.

I should add that if I couldn't get this combo, I still would try for defenders. This means that I am using missionaries to rush convert my own cities so defenders is always applicable on my border cities. It also helps with envoys, and being suzy of cs combos can be devastating. And it synergizes nicely with tithe.

Ultimately, civ is and always has been a game of efficiency, and the religion combo I mention is super efficient. I expect some will argue that investing in a religion is not worth it, but if I *don't* use this combo, the difference is quite noticable - growth and expansion is much slower. The difference is like driving with your parking brake on.

 

[Kyro]

Always. Is it efficient? No. Is it fun? Yes.

Every great Civilization has faith of some sort that shaped their culture and morals.

Defender of the Faith makes my Civilization completely immune to AI aggression.

Worth Ethics let me churn out 300 Production per turn in some cities.

In short it gives me the freedom and power do do things the efficient approach never can.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I can't remember the last time I continued a game after finding out that I failed to get a religion...

 

[kryat]

Spreading the faith for tithe or church property can get you pretty good GPT, but tithe was more powerful in V since city sizes were generally bigger and they didn’t re-scale the belief between versions. On a standard map in VI you might be able to get 50 extra GPT with moderate effort by late mid-game. Again, it’s really situationally on whether you’re playing as a civ that has some affinity with faith or holy sites. I wouldn’t try too hard as England, but I’m building holy sites as Indonesia anyway to fund my navy.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Are the founder beliefs really such a bad investment?

A missionary on standard speed costs 100 faith. If you have the pilgrimage founder belief, you can convert three low-population foreign cities, and that missionary will have paid for himself in 17 turns.

Compare that to building a workshop, which takes 88 turns to pay for itself.

Looking at it that way, it seems like founder beliefs can actually be pretty profitable as long as you're smart about how you spread.

 

[kryat]

Are the founder beliefs really such a bad investment?

A missionary on standard speed costs 100 faith. If you have the pilgrimage founder belief, you can convert three low-population foreign cities, and that missionary will have paid for himself in 17 turns.

Not to mention that having a faith-generating infrastructure for a religion, especially with pilgrimage, is the best way to have enough faith for naturalists in the late game, which are superb sources of amenities and tourism.

Edit; National parks do not generate gold, except in Outback Tycoon.

 

[Bechhold]

Yes, for the , and the that is Tithe.

 

[liv]

Going for religion is one thing and I get that it is a fun aspect of the game sometimes.
but the notion that it is somehow better than just not going for it has to be wrong.
We could try to compare a game where a player pushed religion with one where it was ignored it and I am pretty sure that the one without would be far more effective

 

[Disgustipated]

Worth Ethics let me churn out 300 Production per turn in some cities.

How? I always choose work ethic and tithe, but I don't think I've ever got over 150.

 

[Kyro]

How? I always choose work ethic and tithe, but I don't think I've ever got over 150.

Have around 20 Mines/Hilly Lumber Mills along rivers, population of above 30 with nearly everyone converted. Use internal trade routes for all food. Communism Government. 6 Envoys each in at least 3 Industrial City States supported by Papal Primacy belief.

It's easier if you have Ruhr Valley.

So Religion is not the only source but that 30% production boost is crucial. By the way there's a hard cap of 100% on how much production an be boosted if I'm not wrong as I couldn't hit 500 even with Australia.

 

[Ondolindë]

Most certainly. I find that 1) adds to my enjoyment and gives me an extra challenge by balancing one more variable and 2) gives me benefits with other aspects of the game (purchasing buildings and acquiring GP with faith, for example, granted I get some Wonders to help with that.). Overall, it is quite fun. I cannot wait to get to play with the latest patch soon, hopefully, to use warrior monks and the like which you buy with faith.