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Does anyone invest in religion if NOT going for religious victory?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Stringer1313, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. Hauptman

    Hauptman Chieftain

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    Defender of the faith is a must for me. Religions all get nabbed? RESTART!~

    Crusade would be impressive too but requires early investment. Most of my conquest is done before my religion even gets spread, as all early faith goes to the first 2 apostles for the beliefs.

    Ignoring religion just loses you too many choices... tithe and church property are good for supplemental income. The extra culture or science from spreading gives you a reason to spread if you are into that.

    Work ethic is just meh TBH... I havent nabbed that since my first game that I got a religion... for far too long the pop counts stays too low... so a 8-10% bonus just dont do it for me. By end game sure it could be impressive. But without taking it, my last 2 games my capital was at 350+ production per turn even without it (globalism best tech in game yo!). Sure another 25% would be nice, but it wouldnt make much a difference when you crank out every space race mission in 1 turn each anyways because of the engineer (always build the Mausoleum at Halicarnasis!!!! I rage quit if I lose that).

    There are other ways to do everything that religion can do for you... sure, there is that opportunity cost. Ignore temples and build commercial hubs for the $$, build more ranged troops and the +10 combat dont matter, etc... But I'm always a fan of "more with less", and in that religion helps. Why build 5 crossbows when 2 will suffice with Defender of the faith? Why spam so many commercial hubs when I can just crank out a couple missionaries for zero build time?... etc.

    Also... theological combat is worth a good giggle when you hit that "no more wars allowed" stage of the game... Gives you something to do if you are trying to avoid that warmonger penalty. Best part is, you can ally whomever it is you want to beat up and see all his units, then hunt them down (and die horribly) for those tasty tasty relics.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
    Tiger Genocide likes this.
  2. Kyro

    Kyro Prince

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    I tend to restart the moment my preferred beliefs are taken as well...work ethic is very rarely taken though. Defender is favored by some Civilizations over others for some reason but it's never picked as the first belief as AI always prioritizes Religious buildings.

    With regards to Work Ethic being meh that's only the case because half your production comes from trade routes...hitting above 500 even based on that alone can be accomplished by rerouting trade routes...I've have had a few games where my Great Zimbabwe City exceeded my Ruhr Petra City thanks to the sheer number of trade routes coursing through it. You also have to sacrifice growth in other cities to make that possible. With Work Ethic however, you can have multiple cities churning out that kind of production by end game because you can divert trade routes to other cities for food instead.

    Strangely my Capital rarely hits above 200 production because all its land is used for wonders.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  3. liv

    liv Emperor

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    I think the cost getting to the point of being successful with religion is too high compared to what else you could do with production in early game (such as build units)
    True that you can have some powerful crossbows but the way AI spams religion they may not be that powerful. Nor may the effort you put into those missonaries pay off. Having a trade route is pretty guaranteed.
     
  4. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    But what do you need it for? I'm pro religion, make no mistake, but I'm not sure that much production is useful at that point. I do like to pad my capital's production though. But I'd rather have fast growth early on in the game. More districts sooner, monopolize great people, more gold, and so forth.

    I guess for cranking out nukes and bombers its handy.
     
  5. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    I don't do early wars often and haven't tried it before, but just started a game yesterday where I used Crusades succesfully. I was Rusland and started squished in behind Egypt who is always a pita. So as soon as I had founded my religion, and before she could get her damn chariots up and running, I DoW her and convert her capital, move in with a couple of archers, a couple of warrios and a warrior monk, which was more than enough to wipe her out quickly.
     
  6. pokiehl

    pokiehl King

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    I made a mod that addresses this - Religion Expanded. I figure some people in this thread might like it. It raises the Founded Religions cap to 16 per game (everyone gets a religion essentially!) and adds almost 50 new beliefs (including new fully-rendered custom worship buildings). My goal was to make religion useful for more than just a religious victory.

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1178185727
     
    Ondolindë likes this.
  7. Kyro

    Kyro Prince

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    You're right I don't actually "Need" it for victory. I want it because it gives me the innate potential to do anything I want in the game. It makes my Civilization as powerful and as unlimited as possible. It makes my cities worth something more than just a means to an end in that their power comes from careful and patient planning that a hasty approach could never attain.

    In the end, the cities represent the civilization, if they're just faces in a crowd that don't matter and are easily replaceable then the Civilization itself is meaningless.
     
  8. Ozisl

    Ozisl Warlord

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    I'll frequently build just enough to make defenses against other religions, if I'm not going for a religious victory. There are some benefits.
     
  9. gunnergoz

    gunnergoz Cat Herder

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    I positively hate the religious unit side of the game and avoid it if at all possible. My preference would be for religion to spread passively, like culture did in Civ V, spurred on by buildings, policies and government types...or by "tithing" a part of national income towards religious expansion. The regligious units are a bane, a blight, a pain. When I see a rush of AI religious units coming at me, many times I just quit the game in disgust.
     
  10. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    I rarely found a religion anymore because it's just too much of a hassle with the AI religious unit spam. In my current game, I left it on Random leader and wound up with the Khmer. My first thought was, "Crap! Now I need to found a religion or I'm wasting half of my civ's uniques." I've actually come to dread randomly rolling religious themed civs now because of that (and it seems like an awful lot of civs have a religious theme somewhere in their mix of uniques).
     
  11. liv

    liv Emperor

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    The religious units are easier to deal with now that they have there own layer. I often want to have their religion (depending a bit on what it is) and when I see all the units I think how good that they are wasting their energy on religion
     
  12. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    Which is why I no longer bother to found a religion (I know it's just going to get eradicated by the AI's religions and I can concentrate my efforts in more worthwhile areas) . . . except when I roll a civ that benefits from founding its own religion.
     
  13. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    As with others, I'll use it if it's situationally useful - if I have good faith-producing opportunities and so it's efficient to have something to sink the resources into, such as Jesuit Education, or simply to get the resource bonuses from Tithe, World Church or Interfaith Dialogue. I probably end up founding a religion about 50% of the time overall (other than a current effort to go for the achievement I don't play for religious victories as I don't find it interesting).

    At least it's not like tourism where there's essentially no reason to go for it if you aren't aiming at that victory type.
     
  14. OneMoreTurnPerTile

    OneMoreTurnPerTile Chieftain

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    I wouldn't say its game breaking, but I recently tried Choral Music for the first time and its not bad at all. 6 Holy Sites with shrine and temples =36 culture per turn. Prob saved some gold too with the increased border expansion.
     
  15. Hauptman

    Hauptman Chieftain

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    Seriously... I've been playing this game for a month... and have already figured out the AI will not send it's horde at you if you just convert your own cities to your own religion. The horde only moves for "no dominate religion" cities that it can see.


    Early wars are the best wars. Beeline archery and just wear them down with 3 archers and a couple warriors... or my absolute fave, beeline Iron working and send 2 Legions. Archer rush can begin sooner but the sword rush is just a blitz. And as Rome... so much fun. However... this tactic requires neighbors who build temples. I've had to restart a number of games because even though my Legions had captured 7+ holy sights, I still failed to get a prophet... not that I mind restarting and doing all that fun conquest again.


    I'm a fan of Civ 4... I was playing that a couple months ago before I got Civ 6 on black friday sale... so as such the Bureaucracy civic is pretty ingrained into my play style. My entire empire is there to support my capital. Not visa-versa. The cap needs 2 wonders... Great Zimbabwe, and the Ruhr. Anything else takes away it's tiles... although it will build more... we do after all get 36 tiles per city if you space them correctly (unlike the AI which crams everything in tight and makes me go insane when dealing with conquered lands). But it's job is to build and encampment, airport, seaport, and handle all the military needs. Why spend 30 turns waiting on a frigate, when the cap can build one in 8 (Marathon). Really want to get that advanced flight eureka? Good luck getting and airport up, and 3 biplanes before you could finish the hard research, unless you have a super city.

    See I tried your plan originally, spread those trade routes, get more than one city looking good... but... it fails. I'd rather have a super city all game, than 4 or 5 good cities late game. The other cities will grow, they will come to their own sooner or later. But Rome/Aachen must be the city of worlds desire ASAP!

    I mean... what's the point of going through all the trouble of running that first settler for 10 turns to get that perfect build spot... if you are going to squander it by caring more about later cities? "Nay!" I say...

    I had Aachen at 350 production on 16 trade routes. Not 50. It was all tiles baby.
     
  16. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Yes, this is an important point. You rarely need to deal with enemy religious units, they're normally just passing through your lands for some remote city state to convert. The main exception is early game, where you may have only one city following your religion, and where AI will convert any unconverted cities to their religion, which can making spreading your own religion an uphill battle. Otherwise, just buy an Inquisitor or Apostle and park them on a holy site and enjoy the AI killing their own religious units attacking it.
     
  17. Hauptman

    Hauptman Chieftain

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    Just for visual reference... Because I'm "THAT GUY."



    I love Tsingy as a start... makes the early game much more bearable. One tile for 6 research? Sign me up... I'll run for that bad dog. This is the same turn I won the space race... and still had enough overflow to make sure I left nothing behind. ;)

    This game had very little conquest and war... I only took out Kongo out of pity... he spent like 100 turns waiting on me to move my archer so he could forward settle me instead of taking all the northern land that I left open for him.... 200 turns into the game and he still only had 2 cities. (this is marathon mind you). So my northern cities arent that old. Settled circa turn 350 or so. And still the conquered cities are the weakest because of AI spacing. Why AI why?

     
    liv likes this.
  18. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    If you've only been playing for a month then you don't know how incredibly annoying religious units were before they got their own plane. They were also a lot more aggressive in trying to convert each and every city in sight. The situation now is indeed pretty ok but I can very well understand some ppl still loathing the sight of rival clergy on their soil.
     
  19. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    I usually try to get a religion, or at least a pantheon. I've only done a religious victory once for the achievement.
     
  20. Hauptman

    Hauptman Chieftain

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    By the way... back to the topic...

    I think from this moment on, Goddess of the harvest will be the only pantheon to take. It's a must for the speed win people, and I now understand why. This particular game was wrought with trees... Trees for miles... and seafood too. If I had the harvest pantheon, I could have saved so much gold, late game crab chops are insane. 1,500 gold from a crab would have been 1,500 faith as well. As it was I was only able to faith out one of the 4 great people I needed to get through for the space race guy. I had taken the faith from mines, because of the diamonds... but I literally only had 2 other mines in my entire empire benefit. So if earth goddess is not available, go harvest. Definitely.
     

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