1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Does Civ 5 need to be "smartened up"?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by da_Vinci, Oct 10, 2010.

?

Does Civ 5 need to be "smartened up"? (Chose all that apply)

  1. No, I love it like it is

    6 vote(s)
    2.5%
  2. Yes, fix basic functions (saving, screenshots, replays, MP, etc.)

    158 vote(s)
    65.8%
  3. Yes, give the AI a brain (combat, diplo, etc.)

    211 vote(s)
    87.9%
  4. Yes, show me the data (provide more info on what is going on)

    170 vote(s)
    70.8%
  5. Yes, bring back the good stuff (religion, sliders, stacks, etc.)

    99 vote(s)
    41.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. da_Vinci

    da_Vinci Gypsy Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,182
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    In view of the various criticisms and bug reports regarding Civ 5, and in particular the poll on Civ 5 being “dumbed down”, I thought it might be useful to poll folks in a way that tries to categorize the criticism in a constructive way might help speed a resolution of some issues.

    Vote for as many as you think apply … so in reality you are voting yes or no on each option.

    I want to clarify here what I am trying to tease out with the poll choices.

    First option is for you if you love the game right out of the box, as is, no changes.

    The next three choices are improvements that could be made without undoing the new vision or direction the game has taken. Things to improve without changing game mechanics. So if you like the game but think it needs better basic functionality like saving (a file menu, perhaps, or direct loads from a file), replays (any functionality would be nice), screenshots (naming window?), or various multiplayer issues; if you think the AI just has to be smarter; if you want to play less in a black box and have more data to look at … one or more of these choices may be for you.

    The final choice represents potential changes to gameplay (direction or vision) itself … which are too numerous to itemize individually. This would include all the suggestions to restore gameplay features from prior Civ versions that were not retained in Civ 5 (religion, the slider, civics, unit stacking, tech trading, etc.), or add new features.

    So go vote, then come to the spoiler tab here to see what my current thinking is.

    Spoiler :
    I would be surprised if anyone votes for the "no, fine out of the box” option. There is, in my opinion, too much generic functionality that is still missing or broken.

    I would expect the basic function, AI brain and more data options to have wide appeal, if not clear consensus. Whether you like or don’t like the new game vision or direction, I think these issues need to be addressed.

    The final item is where I think the controversy will remain, as this is a vote on the game’s direction and vision. A lot of the debate here is more about opinion and preference than about fact, which makes it less resolvable. I think it will boil down to whether the new game mechanics will present players with multiple distinct yet viable paths to follow, and thus multiple choices among viable options to make, throughout the game. Or do the new game mechanics funnel players into a narrow range of best play options, that become repetitive and uninteresting after some number of completed games? It is the difference between creating your own path on a blank canvas, and finding the one right path in a maze. Once a maze is solved, it is no longer interesting, so if Civ 5 turns out to be more like the maze, then it will be a failure.

    As a GOTM and SGOTM player, I will know the answer when I see what kind of analysis of Civ 5 happens in those forums. In Civ 4 SGOTM we can spend two weeks and 200 posts deciding the first move of the scout and settler in a game. Will there be as rich a discussion of first move in Civ 5? Will there be as much discussion of, and so many reasonable options for, tile management and tile improvement, in Civ 5 SGOTM as in Civ 4? Right now, I can see that the answer might be no, but that may change as I get more familiar with Civ 5.


    dV
     
  2. lschnarch

    lschnarch Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,296
    I voted for all four "yes"-options.
     
  3. da_Vinci

    da_Vinci Gypsy Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,182
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    Thanks, and I hope people get that this is a chose all that apply poll. ;)

    dV
     
  4. Sabretou

    Sabretou Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    Messages:
    144
    Location:
    Mumbai
    Voted for all except the "goodies". I can do without sliders for sure, and religion while nice, is not essential for me. I have absolutely no idea why they decided to strip the game of all personality and remove the map replays, graphs and AI. Somebody needs to implant the Civ IV AI into Civ V!
     
  5. Jediron

    Jediron Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    396
    the sliders were a good thing; taxing much when you need cash fast, set more to happiness to keep the pop satisfied and more to science, if you coudl afford to. My only issue with it is; it wasn't on the strategic map, you always needed to open a window. Put it on the main screen, for easy acces.
     
  6. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13,818
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    The three in the middle for me ... i do not care much for the "good stuff" and I can live without it, but if I want a unbalanced and buggy game, I'll go play Dwarf fortress, that has the plus of being both free and a admitedly beta version. Being kept on the dark regarding diplo ( and another stuff in general ... why did the demo graphs gone out for a example ? ) is also a gripe in my book.
     
  7. Tanthil

    Tanthil Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    24
    I voted yes for 3rd and 4th, didnt vote yes on 5th becuse such things like religion etc should be introduced in extension pack, and i think this pool is for vanila civ V :)
     
  8. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    7,643
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Well I chose 3 out of the 5 options. I chose giving the AI a brain first-because that is *definitely* the thing which most needs to be fixed at this present time. Basic Functionality I chose 2nd, though I think the modders have already done a stand-up job in this regard (esp. Thalassicus (sp.)) I picked more information 3rd-not because I don't think its important, but because I feel the game will be still playable if only the first two selections are fixed.
    As to bringing back stuff from Civ4-though I definitely do miss religion in Civ5, I don't think that bringing that & other elements back will necessarily *improve* the game-& I'm glad to see the back of the Slider, Tech Trading & Stack Combat!

    Aussie.
     
  9. bromidias

    bromidias Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2010
    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I voted for all exept the goodies. Gameplay needs to be adressed, bugs flushed out etc. But goodies do not need to be in for me, its ciV and not civ IV difference is good.
     
  10. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    9,312
    Location:
    Australia
    This is a confusing poll. Why are you asking about it being smartened up?

    Then the responses seem to be for a different question, about whether the game needs fixing.

    e.g. If I had the opinion that the game doesn't need smartening up, but it needs fixing and I don't love it, what the heck am I supposed to choose?

    I think you thought you were creating a poll that had less bias in it, or at least the reverse bias in it to the other poll, but now it's just confusing.

    Wouldn't the question be more appropriately phrased as:

    Does Civ5 need changing?
     
  11. da_Vinci

    da_Vinci Gypsy Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,182
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    So there is a "make saves, replays and screenshots work" mod?

    1. Where is it?

    2. Shouldn't that be the next patch (not a mod)?

    dV
     
  12. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    9,312
    Location:
    Australia
    Also, by asking does it need to be 'smartened up', which is a very positive expression, you're biasing the result I'm afraid. :(

    It's kinda like the opposite of smartening something up would be dumbing it down. And who in their right mind would be of the opinion that the game should be dumbed down?
     
  13. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,724
    Location:
    Liverpool, UK
    Yes, apart from the "good stuff" - I see these changes as deliberate and good changes that don't take anything away, they just *change* the game.

    The first three points, however, have less to do with the game mechanics (which are good in my opinion) and more about feedback and interaction with the game rules - which, I think, is a bit lacking.

    Cheers, LT.
     
  14. da_Vinci

    da_Vinci Gypsy Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,182
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    That is the essence of the question. My use of the term "smartening up" was a bit of a marketing tool to get it noticed, and to play off the "dumbed down" poll.

    I guess to my mind, fixes would be for the better, and so fixes would constitute "smartening up" in a broad sense of the term. If it solves confusion, think of the poll question as you rephrased it.

    My goal was not really about less bias or reversing bias, and more about trying to classify the kinds of issues being raised in the formus. The "dumbed down" poll was criticized for not defining "dumbed down". Here I am trying to sort out issues of execution of the Civ 5 vision vs. issues of dislike of the Civ 5 vision, and get some quantitative sense about them.

    dV
     
  15. da_Vinci

    da_Vinci Gypsy Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,182
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    Looks like my poll could use some smartening up ... ;) :lol:

    Although I don't think it's that bad. First of all, the opposite of "smartening up" is "not smartening up" (which includes "leaving it alone"), the opposite is not "dumbing down" (which is only one of the options under "not smartening up").

    Second, even if you have issues with the question, the answers are pretty clearly a choice between no changes and certain types of changes. Given the intense passions seen here in the forums, do you really think that any imperfections in how the question was stated are really going to change how people make their choices from that list?

    With about 44 votes in to date, the poll seems to be performing in a coherent fashion: no one says no changes are needed, large majorities voting for better execution of the current vision, and 40% to 45% wanting to bring back some of the prior and removed features (which is right in the ball park of the % expressing the dumbed down sentiment in the other poll).

    On an unrelated point, I loved your Blanket of Doom screenshots ... I have not played up at that level yet, but that does look pretty ugly.

    dV
     
  16. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    7,643
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    I'm glad to see that the majority of those voting on this poll are *not* voting for just Civ4b, but actually want it to be Civ5-only with major improvements to the gameplay!

    Aussie.
     
  17. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    9,312
    Location:
    Australia
    It's ok. My only issue is that people will eventually inevitably use this poll to argue that people want the game to be more 'complex' - they will equate that to 'smartening it up'.

    I think the poll will do well in differentiating the different issues people have with the game, which I gather from what you have said is the main purpose anyway.

    I really would recommend treating with caution the "No" votes though, or the lack of them. In fact I'd recommend ignoring them and simply take the ratios of the different yes votes as the interesting result here.
     
  18. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13,818
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    ^^Given that so far no one voted "No", that is pretty much the only honest position to have in a analysis :lol:
     
  19. Sadan01

    Sadan01 Conical Flask

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    640
    Location:
    Brisbane, Australia
    Voted on all four 'yes' options. No one has voted "No" yet. Pretty telling in my mind what needs to be done.
     
  20. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    9,312
    Location:
    Australia
    Oh, you're right. Good point then.

    Anyway, sorry dV for bringing my pedantry to your thread. :)

    I don't wish to vote but I will say that the number one priority is fixing bugs, second is improving the UI and fixing performance issues.


    One wouldn't expect many to vote No before the first major patch. ;)
     

Share This Page