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Does Civ 6 have the potential to surpass Civ 4?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by labellavienna, Oct 25, 2016.

  1. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    This makes little sense.

    I think civ4 is the crowning achievement of the franchise and I thought civ5 sucked.

    Civ6 looks like it could be the best ever - Most of the issues are very clearly fixable. If not by eventual modding.
     
    anandus, Photi, Ornen and 2 others like this.
  2. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond King

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    As long as AI cannot cope properly with 1upt, not going to happen.
     
    Akbarthegreat likes this.
  3. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    The gameplay itself is quite good.
    They need to change a lot of things, though:
    * Make it as moddable as civ IV.
    * Fix the bad UI
    * Fix the bad AI
    * Do something about religious units hindering warfare and generally being a PITA.
     
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  4. Sascha77

    Sascha77 Prince

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    Even though I'm kinda bummed out by Civ VI at this point (I just re-installed Civ IV/Warlords/BtS), I wouldn't put it past Fireaxis to turn this thing around eventually. They are a pretty competent bunch, they have turned around Civ V in the past and they know that Civilization is their flagship-franchise... so addressing all the criticism that VI is getting right now should be a no-brainer for them.

    If we're super honest, vanilla Civ V wasn't much to write home about, either. It only became good with G+K and became great with BNW.
    However: I'm still pi§§ed off about them releasing the game in its current state. To me it feels like they were way too focused on presentation, obsessing over things like the new look of the game, the soundtrack and changing the UI around for no real reason other than to make it "different" from previous Civ-UIs. To me, stuff like the new look, the music or even Sean Bean's narration are window dressing. Doesn't mean they're not important, but without a solid game underneath that makes me feel engaged and makes me play until the wee hours of the morning, they're not worth anything. Fitting $3000 rims to a rusted-out car with its engine and steering wheel missing doesn't make that car better. ;)

    Personally, I would rather have had them release VI with features like religion missing (to be introduced in an expansion) but with a solid base of core mechanics/features that actually work and are balanced properly. As it is now, the game leaves me feeling disinterested... going through the tech-trees feels "trivial" and not very engaging - in older civ-games, I loved racing towards certain techs and definitely had that "just ... one..more..turn"-feeling. Something which I absolutely *don't* get in Civ VI.

    Or take religion in VI: It seems way too easy to found a religion and then to spread it around. With crazy high faith generation I can always spam a ton of missionaries. In V, getting out a missionary in the early game was much harder and involved making a hard decision: Do I really want to spend my hard-earned faith on an early missionary? Do I wait for a GP to enhance my religion ASAP? Do I grab a religious building first to increase faith production/happiness?

    In VI, I'm producing so much faith that getting any religious unit just doesn't feel special at all. Heck, in one of my games I had forgotten completely about religion, checked my faith and saw that I had about 2000 faith-points lying around. And then I could just spam a ton of missionaries/inquisitors/apostles in the same city and *in a single turn*. And when you can get these units this cheaply and can produce them at an insane rate, producing and using them doesn't feel like anything special. Losing one of them or failing to convert a city also doesn't matter much, since you can easily spam more of them and try again. I've also never, ever missed out on founding a religion, even with non-religious leaders. In V, unless you were playing someone like Boudicca, you could *easily* miss your opportunity to grab a religion if you got unlucky. For example: Getting the goodie-hut faith boost in V still feels special to me, simply because getting a religion up and running can be such a chore in that game and the benefits from religion are so significant.


    In short: Everything seems to come to me too easily in VI - thus making "achievements" feel kinda hollow. When things are easily achieved, achieving them feels more like "meh..." than "YAY!!".
    And I don't know if the devs can change any of that too significantly, simply because much of what's causing this is baked into the game.Our best bet at this point is probably the modding community and a total conversion, bringing Civ VI more in line with previous titles.



    S.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
  5. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Conquistador

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    Of course, it already surpasses any other vanilla Civ game in every possible way.
     
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  6. mazz0

    mazz0 Chieftain

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    If it's stable and I can complete marathon huge map multiplayer games without it freezing then yes.

    Also, I think maybe yes anyway! I love the unstacked cities, and the separate tech trees.

    I also like 1UPT. Building a huge army and clicking Go to see which side one, ala Civ IV, had a certain excitement to it, like gambling, but there wasn't much to it. I agree though that for conquest to be fun they need an AI for the opponent.

    That said, the bloody yanks just wages a pretty good offensive on me. Brought their melee up to the city, bombarded with their catapults, pulled back injured units and replaced them with fresh ones. I had to save scum pretty hard to avoid losing the city. So much for keeping the peace on the continent you t***.
     
  7. Sascha77

    Sascha77 Prince

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    I actually think this is one of the biggest mistakes in VI. Having two tech trees reduces the number of choices you need to make ("Do I use my science to research more military-/infrastructure-related tech or do I go for civics-/culture-related stuff or purely religious techs for the time being?"). In VI, you often don't need to make that choice/compromise, since you can always research two techs (well.. a tech and a civic) simultaneously.

    S.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
  8. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    It will requires millions of faith points for them to be able to perform such miracles. Better get that holy site built! ;)
     
  9. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    In a unified tree you can always interleave two tech lines if you wanted to.

    What the split does is give fewer opportunities to sacrifice one aspect to beeline another -- but on the other hand it makes the decisions matter much more. In a unified tech tree, after sciencing up to hurry to an advanced military, you can then redirect your science to quickly catch up in your civics. In a split tree, you can't -- if you make the decision to sacrifice culture to accelerate science, you're stuck with it.
     
  10. AlpsStranger

    AlpsStranger Jump jump on the tiger!

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    I think unit selling ( I assume by this you mean getting a lot of money on deletion, yeah? ) is probably just busted. I get their intention, but I think they may have to chop it down to a token pittance. I'm guessing there are yet other ways to exploit it TBH.
     
  11. Arkatakor

    Arkatakor King

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    There are some mechanics that add depth to Civ VI. For example, districts, city states, the non fat cross access to tiles, wonders being constructed on tiles, how you found religions (instead of being first to research a tech, you have to invest in GPP).

    That said I agree with many others here that the 1UPT has done horrific damage to the series, both in terms of impeding the AI, as well as making late game warfare (where you control more than 5 units) a total management nightmare. I often found myself quitting Civ V games due to the latter. If you are still into Civ IV then I strongly recommend you look into the Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn modmod. Its based on the Rise of Mankind mod and is the cumulative result of near 10 years of on and off modding and the best mod I have played of anything. Ever. And its still being modded even today.
     
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  12. Gamling80

    Gamling80 Chieftain

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    I totally agree. The 1UPT system feels cumbersome and boring and makes me avoid combat like I never did in previous games. An upgraded version of the combat system of the Call to Power games would have been awesome and what I hoped for when I heard of Civ VI. Perhaps generals leveling up unlocking skills but with limited lifespan leading the armies. Adding armies consisting of several units and "battlegrounds" to Civ VI would make a great expansion. The current system could still be there as skirmishes solving 1 vs 1 unit combat.

    If the battles are decided by army composition and pre battle setup and then automated will they don´t take much time either and perhaps even go faster than moving and attacking with each unit by them self.



    Endless Legend has made a battle system where the battle map consist of the terain of the strategic map around the battle hex and you assign targets for each unit but they move by them self. That felt to me like a half done system. I think I prefer either fast automated battles like in Call to power or player controlled battles like in Age of wonders 3.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
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  13. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    LOL. Very funny.
     
  14. Arkatakor

    Arkatakor King

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    Sorry but no, this game feels like a beta in many ways, mainly due to the overtly glaring UI issues.
     
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  15. AlpsStranger

    AlpsStranger Jump jump on the tiger!

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    Well the sort of ****-talking in here about the vanilla state of the game is a bit eyerolling, and I think I agree that it's in pretty good shape as vanilla Civ releases go, the UI issues are pretty bad.

    Firaxis/2K need to break from the tradition of very painfully slowly squeezing out patches and start doing this one hard and fast.
     
  16. Auramagma

    Auramagma Chieftain

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    I suppose it depends on what the comparison is based on. Civ4 is very solid strategy game. Where you have to decide on winning strategy for the game based on what civ you are playing,ststarting location, whom you are up against etc. And it had many instruments for you to help to implement yiur strategy.

    CiV went in different direction. It started to put more enfasis on tactical decisions imho. Like what you are doing in the shorter spans of time became more important than long term strategy. Which I think benefitted the multilayer quite abit.

    CiVI seems to follow CiV steps with some reverence to the older games. Will it surpass CiIV in terms of strategic planning - I seriously doubt it, will it surpass it in terms of players admiration and subjective fun value in their eyes- it is very possible and is already happening from what I can tell. ..
     
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  17. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Conquistador

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    Just like any other vanilla release that I can think of.

    To each his own, but I'm honestly having a blast playing it, no way I can go back to Civ IV or V now.

    Good news for me I guess, things are only going to get better from this point forward. :smug:
     
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  18. salty mud

    salty mud Deity

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    I'm very interested in how you can call Civ V a better game than Civ IV. I have read numerous critiques of Civ V outlining how it is inferior and I agree with pretty much everything.

    If you're just going to reply with "1UPT > SoD" then just save your breath.
     
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  19. Arkatakor

    Arkatakor King

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    Agreed. I am sure this game will be awesome once the UI issues have been tweaked notably lack of build queues (either by firaxis or modders), balancing has been implemented (being first to discover a city state is way too OP for example). I'll be looking forward to the expansions and the mods on the expansions. Either way this is a much more solid release than Civ V.
     
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  20. Paramecium

    Paramecium Prince

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    Sorry, but can I ask you, on which difficulty you are playing? If you dont go straight for astrology and focus more on the lower part of the tech tree f.e., it is quite hard to get your religion at all beginning with emperor+ difficulty. Sure, you can pump in the prophet wild card, more holy sites, shrines, projects. But all that is not that "en passant" like you are discribing. And if you dont protect your religion and forget it for a dozens of turns, it will just get wiped out by apostles/missionaires spams of the AI ...
     

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