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Does Civ 6 have the potential to surpass Civ 4?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by labellavienna, Oct 25, 2016.

  1. Lay_Lay

    Lay_Lay King

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    I have no memory of vanilla Civ4, but vanilla Civ5 barely even qualified as a video game.
    So yes on that standard, Civ6 is amazing.
     
  2. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    It would really make me happy if people stop complaining about 1upt. You had your time for that when civ5 came out. If you hate it so much, wtf are you even doing in civ6 knowing that they did not and will not change back to stacks ? If this were my forum, i would make the software detect every instance of the text 1upt in a post and automatically move those posts to the civ5 forum.

    So with that out of the way. Yes i believe civ6 has the potential to surpas all previous civs for sure. None were perfect at release and showed great improvements later. Civ6 seems no exception to the software industries increasing habbit of having their first release be more like a beta even though it doesnt carry that name. Hence i think civ6 will show a lot of improvement in the future. Some things need serious balancing imo, but i trust that will happen.

    The district concept looks really promising to me.

    Except for the fact that they are using us as unwitting beta testers they are doing an awesome job. (although if not, that would mean the game would now be in actual beta and we would all still be waiting for its release which arguably is not really better) Very few people in this world have been more invested in and in love with civ3 and once i got over my prejudices, i had to admit that civ5 was a better game. I have little doubt that civ6 is going to be even better. Lets hope the needed fixes and balance changes are going to happen fast. I also hope, although i know it is in vain, that they will improve the AI in a revolutionary way. While there is multiplayer in civ, it still remains mostly a single player game. Single player games really should have a proper AI. One that does not rely on a hugely advantagious start, but that remains challenging troughout the game. That of course is not to be expected, but since none of the previous civs have had a good AI, it wont stop civ6 from being better than its predecessors.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
    killmeplease likes this.
  3. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    civ4 offer the greatest civ experience.

    will civ 6 be its worthy successor, give modders a proper source mod, some starting guides, and the community will make civ6 to be a worthy civ4 heir.
    people will still buy civ6 5 years from now, if it will be made as powerful as civ4.
    its got great new ideas, new mechanics and the most greatest advantage any civ game had - speed, using multi core and 64 bit.but bad implementation of many things , ai, ui.
    the expansions will sure to fix and add many things, but at the end, only modders will keep the game alive.

    till then..civ4 is indeed , the king.
     
    Captain Sharpe likes this.
  4. Pepo

    Pepo Prince

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    As far as I know Civ VI still uses 1upt so I don't know why should a post refering to 1upt should be move there. And we didn't have our time when Civ V came out (BTW that was really a disastrous release) because Civ is still using a broken design decision. And as we care about the Civ franchise, we want to replace this mechanic with a better alternative that is better both for the Ai and the player (and before you jump, no, I'm not referring to SoD). Finally I don't need to buy a game to know how it works and feels ( and at this time that games are so broken at release, I still find it unbelievable that peopldoesn'tt finished releases). If you don't like our arguments is fine, but wishing to close the opposition discourse is bad for both the community and the game as one-dimension thought doesn't allow for a critical opposition that allows the developers or other players see flaws and solve then to improve the overall experience
     
  5. AlpsStranger

    AlpsStranger Jump jump on the tiger!

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    For the record, while I acknowledge there may end up being depth issues ( obligatory "that's what she said" ) and balance issues when the game is exposed to the rigorous glare of incredibly skilled players, and it may not hold up as well under such hard scrutiny as Civ4, I'd be far and away more likely to suggest this game to a non-uber-hardcore Civ fan than 4 EVEN IN ITS CURRENT STATE.

    If we're talking about which Civ is the most fun for 99.5% of humanity, it's this one by MILES. If we're talking about people who eat continents for breakfast and **** wonders before lunch, then this probably can't hold up as well as Civ4. That's my 2 cents.
     
    MikalJ likes this.
  6. Chinese American

    Chinese American Hamtastic Knight

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    One thing that Sid put into his original games is a very human interface presented to the player. In the city screen he put icons of citizens. As their leader, this brings connection to people in your empire. You can see at a glance if they're happy or angry. You can watch food storage as it grows. This brings a feeling like a parent watching a child grow.

    But since Civ 5 and Civ 6, the city screen feels out of touch. It has no human factor. It's just a bunch of numbers, inanimate as a spreadsheet. You cannot garner any affection toward your cities nor your citizens.

    So forget about the mechanics. What Civ franchise has forgotten and abandoned since Civ 5 is the emotional connection between the players and the game that made Sid such a legendary game designer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
  7. Ashbery76

    Ashbery76 Warlord

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    Civ5 already did.Civ4 has become mythical with supposed great A.I which of course it never did.
     
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  8. Zhahz

    Zhahz PC Gamer

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    Well, considering I already think V is by far best in series and a big improvement over IV (a point of contention for some), I do tend to think that VI will eclipse V.

    As with EVERY new version of civ, there will need to be some growing pains as people adjust and as patches come in to deal with issues.

    Civ 6 is by far the most complete version of civ ever released - a ton of stuff that usually comes in later via xpacs is already there, which further complicates an already complex game (making release issues that much more likely). Most big 4X ship much more raw and fill in with xpacs and DLC. As Quill18 says in his excellent "review/post mortem" - it's hard to imagine anything that's missing other than more civs and map scripts kind of things.

    No amount of beta testing for friends and family testing compares to suddenly having thousands/millions of players pounding on the game and multiple communities of critics chomping.

    So IMO a lot of the "this game is broken blah blah blah they didn't do what *I* think is best" kind of commentary is a bit silly/kneejerk/extreme.

    The game is fun, the game is packed with stuff, and the game will just get better once they start doing some patching.

    The only negative to me is that historically Firaxis/2K are incredibly slow with their updating, especially compared to what one often sees with many devs via steam these days (one positive of steam is that it makes updates/patches far easier/smoother for devs).

    I'm hoping that since Firaxis broke the mold with 6 by including so much at release rather than parcelling it out over xpacs, that they'll also patch faster this time around. One can dream.
     
  9. Zhahz

    Zhahz PC Gamer

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    IMO that's an opinion, not a fact, and as long as that myth is pushed, it's also an excuse for the AI not being better.

    It really doesn't matter whether you have hexes or stacks of cheese infected doom, no AI will ever be as good as a player.

    A lot of people are complaining about it but the AI in VI is better than V. Sure, it needs some tweaks, but it does a lot of things better. It retreats and tries to flee with hurt units. It abandons invasions when it's getting smashed. I does combined arms reasonably well. It's better over water. All things it was really bad at in V.

    There's only so much they can do with the processor power available and demands by players that turn length be in seconds - or less. If the AI commits to an action and gets thwarted, or like in combat how real time judgements have to be made instantly, the AI can only do so much. Maybe we'll all have Crays some day (or maybe consoles will dies off and go away since IMO consoles are holding back tech across the board by being stuck in time for years at a time and causing dev/designers to be limited - thus there being no reason for tech vendors to push for big leaps).
     
    Lugh likes this.
  10. Raider

    Raider Warlord

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    I think the potential is certainly there, but several glaring issues need to be addressed first.

    1. AI needs to be competent
    2. Carpet of doom be addressed
    3. Interface needs major improvement
    4. Balance and exploits fixed
     
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  11. MistyRonin

    MistyRonin Warlord

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    IMHO yes. With my playing experiences so far, a clear yes. It's of course a bit early to judge though.

    I've been playing the series for the last 20 years (yeah I'm that old), and this one feels to me closer to perfection than any other. Of course it has its fair share of issues to be solved, specially a couple of annoying ones, but I'm hopeful.
     
  12. Staler87

    Staler87 Warlord

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    Sure it has the potential but I would probably call it 50/50 as to whether it reaches that potential. For one they need to improve the AI and give it more bonuses.
     
  13. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

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    It is already better then civ iv and civ v:thumbsup:
    So it have already surpassed both of them:goodjob:
     
  14. grmagne

    grmagne Warlord

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    Wow, I'm surprised at how many people like Civ 4 better than Civ 5. If you've never tested the Vox Populi mod, give it a try. I think it makes Civ 5 the most amazing game ever. Eventually Civ 6 will surpass it once there are additional expansions and mods, but not yet :)
     
  15. Qin Shi Hung

    Qin Shi Hung Chieftain

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    No 4X game will ever surpass Alpha Centauri.

    But yes, Civ VI has potential, but fixing what's broken will take time, and fixing the AI would take a research team and 5 years.
     
  16. Sobornost

    Sobornost Chieftain

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    We will keep complaining about 1UPT because they keep including it, and it keeps mucking up a critical component of the game - combat. I know some people think otherwise, but the fact that you're mentioning this goes to show, a lot of people agree. Hell even the guy who designed the 1UPT in the first place agrees.

    It's been pretty well observed that the AI is more of a threat in Civ4 than in Civ5. Many people have observed this. I do not see anyone in comparison arguing that the Civ5 or Civ6 AI is more skilled at bringing military superiority to bear over the human player. I do not think your statement of 'myth' is borne out in facts. I am glad for any progress they make at making the AI perform better at 1UPT, but as you yourself mentioned, there are processor limits for players, and there are AI development resource limits for the company investing (pitifully low maybe but it is what it is - if they don't want to invest a proper amount maybe they should go for the setup that would be cheaper to code half-decently?). A better product in respect to combat AI performance could be achieved by accepting these limitations rather than ignoring them and putting out a product that doesn't perform up to reasonable standards. 1UPT on civ's scale indeed is asking quite a bit.

    Saying that 'AI is inferior to the player, regardless which combat method is used' is also a cop out. Both a local champion chess player and an average 5 year old are inferior to Kasparov in chess. There are still very significant differences, to me, if I were to play against the local champion vs against the average 5 year old. These differences are significant and have been well observed.

    And as we noted before beyond effect on the AI there's no denying that mobilizing large invasions is a real chore in Civ5 (and I'm sure Civ6 too). Combat is at the very core of this game, and 1UPT contradicts the general trend to streamlining, simplifying, by making ridiculously, needlessly complicated the whole logistical matter of one of the core game mechanics. It's a chore, in a game. I might as well do my laundry.

    This isn't really an attempt to mythologize Civ4, I am aware of its limitations, its comparative weaknesses relative to the newer installations in many other things, and even to the downsides of stacks and the combat system, because they definitely exist. I would prefer Civ 5 in a heartbeat if it didn't have 1UPT, I don't have a problem with anything else the game does. But 1UPT is just a critically bad feature that a critical part of the game is all being developed around. That's my perspective. Far from wanting to go back wholesale to Civ4, I want them to pull back this, and this feature only. And heck in modified version, I wouldn't want a straight copy of Civ4's system. Just please try something that's not 1UPT at some point.
     
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  17. Zenstrive

    Zenstrive Ocean King

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    Civ V has surpassed CIV IV long time ago.

    I don't know if Civ VI as it is now can surpass CiV.

    But it has surpassed it in the features category.
     
  18. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    So very true..for newbies, without any strategic desire or sense.
     
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  19. Zenstrive

    Zenstrive Ocean King

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    I have more fun playing V than IV, so sue me.
     
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  20. ruhrgebietheld

    ruhrgebietheld Warlord

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    V is a much better game than IV. It's systems are more complex yet better interconnected. IV is a shallow game compared to V, and it's systems are still more flawed than those found in V. I honestly think the bizarre worship of IV is due mostly to people who care more about the switch to 1UPT than anything else the games actually had to offer.
     

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