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Does early elimination give diplo hit?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by agc28, Feb 2, 2012.

  1. agc28

    agc28 Warlord

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    I play on Immortal, and I like to play Small Continent, Huge map with 12 civs. So usually I am found on a continent with 3-4 other civs, with quite a few unmet civilizations.

    If I completely eliminate the civs nearby, before I even meet a civilization from the other side of the globe, will I get a diplo hit? i.e. Will Genghis Khan from the other continent hate me on the first day we meet?

    The same goes for DoW. If I DoW too much, I will be seen as a warmonger. But will the effect register for unmet civilizations?


    I like to war in the classical/medieval era, before meeting distant civlizations.
    So far I have been refraining from DoW (I let others declare on me), and I refrain from attacking an opponent's last city (saving the last city).

    Can anybody answer my question?
    Thanks in advance. It'd be nice to know that I can DoW 7 times without suffering a penalty from distant civilizations. I want to be able to sell luxuries to distant friends:).
     
  2. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    Theorically, you should have no diplo hit if you kill a civ before they are known by others. But strangely, it's not the case. It's the same for civ4 i think, so nothing has really changed.
     
  3. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    Well, definitely in Civ III it didn't matter what you did to a civ if you did it before others had contact (not that eliminating a civ gave a penalty in Civ III, but declaring war and breaking agreements did).
    Although I don't know anything about this specific case, diplomacy in Civ 5 is much less carefully designed. This is probably another example of it.
     
  4. apocalypse105

    apocalypse105 Deity

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    Hmm I never had this most Ai's don't thinx I am a warmonger when I met them ANd I conquered my hole continent
     
  5. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    Hmm... does anybody have some more info on this? I'm not sure yet what to believe.
     
  6. hudcrab

    hudcrab Chieftain

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    I can confirm that I have been called a 'warmongering menace to the world' when the only war I had been involved in the entire game was against a Civ I eliminated long before either of us met anyone else.

    However, this was by a civ that had other reasons to hate me (they coveted wonders and lands and believed I was trying to win in a manner similar to them). I don't think the fact that I had eliminated someone really made a meaningful impact on any of my dealings
     
  7. lilnev

    lilnev King

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    Why would you want to eliminate anyone? Then you can't sign RAs with them.
    I am curious about the answer with respect to DoWs, though.
     
  8. agc28

    agc28 Warlord

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    I don't like RAs. I never sign them. Even if I have rationalism and porcelain tower.

    I just hate them with a passion.
     
  9. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    Haha very funny :lol:

    Personnally i'm not sure at 100% about what i said for 2 reasons :

    -Been a while i completely eliminated a civ for non domination games
    -Before that, each time i did, almost everyone instantly hated me

    My thoughts are based on a personnal basis, i may be wrong.

    Maybe the penalty is kind of hidden...
     
  10. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    It's rarely safe to RA with someone you've ever been at war with.
    Chances are high that once they rebuild their army, they are just going to DOW you again.

    And if you left them only one city with no resources so they can't rebuild their army; then some other civ wipes them out instead. (And they probably don't cash to sign an RA to begin with)

     
  11. JeanBaptiste

    JeanBaptiste Warlord

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    I also very seldom eliminate AIs or city states so I'm not quite sure. However I've noticed that lots of early warmongering will go unnoticed with unknown civs that you meet later. That's why I like to play on continents.
     
  12. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    Because you want their cities. If a Civ has a bunch of cities, it may not be worth eliminating them, but when they only have 1-3 cities, especially early in the game, it's difficult to not eliminate them and it's generally worth taking their cities as puppets.
     
  13. krc

    krc King

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    "Carthago delenda est!" -- Cato the Elder
     
  14. marvelharvey

    marvelharvey Chieftain

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    Just ran an experiment to make 100% sure:

    -Started a continents map.
    -Revealed the map
    -Spawned mech infantry next to every city on my continent, including city states.
    -Took out 4 civs and 8 city states on the next turn
    -Deleted all my units
    -Spawned scouts on the other continent

    None of the other civs had any knowledge of my wrong doings, all being friendly/neutral. I gifted the neutral civs 100g each and next turn the were friendly. So looks like it's safe to wipe unknown civs out.

    The other city states however, were not happy. All but one had declared permanent war on me.
     
  15. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    That's weird!

    Thanks for doing this test! Knowledge about the game improves by people doing tests and posting the results.
    However, it would have been best if all real civs in this test would have been India. India is a true warmonger-hater. If civs like Aztecs and Greece were involved, the results still don't say much. Some civs are just too tolerant towards warmongers for a test like this.

    But it looks like at least City States will hate you for taking out other City States, even if they never knew about their existence. In my opinion Civilization should avoid mechanics like this, it strikes me as careless.
     
  16. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    The 8 city states in his trade screen might be a clue. ;)
     
  17. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    That would assume the AI is comparing game setup data with later available data and is making a guess which party would have been responsible.
    More likely is that simply no filter is applied that seperates contact yes or no when the elimination occurs.
     
  18. agc28

    agc28 Warlord

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    This would assume that if Mongolia eliminates all the city states and you eliminate Mongolia and puppet all the city states,

    then you will get a diplo hit??
     
  19. Taran'li Maren

    Taran'li Maren Chieftain

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    You all are assuming that once you make contact they don't hear about your past actions from traders or immigrants from your civ. I would expect a short delay after contact before they know what you had done in the past, but we can't really expect that they would never find out about it.

    Heh, how is that for rationalizing what is likely an omniscient ai.
     
  20. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    Well, it could have been made into a game element, that. For instance, you have a happiness problem, and some of your 'loyal' citizens all of a sudden forget about their loyalty and start to tell about your past unsavoury dealings, affecting how other nations think about you.
    Not a bad idea, that, but no, Civilization has never had a mechanism like that.

    The closest thing is that a neigbouring civ would be this grapevine. If you had been a bad boy and eliminated 2 civs on your continent before any contact with another continent was made, but there would be a 4th civilization on your continent that you didn't eliminate, then this 4th civ would spill the beans about you once it connected with the other continent, regardless of its relationship with you.
    How contacts and relationships work in Civ has often been carefully constructed. Whether the Civ 5 designers have been just as careful is the question.
     

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