Does epic speed make the game easier? Are eureka moments and war easier?

Does epic speed make the game easier? Are eureka moments and war easier?

  • yes

    Votes: 44 81.5%
  • no

    Votes: 10 18.5%

  • Total voters
    54

Stoic

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 26, 2021
Messages
60
Does epic speed make the game easier? Are eureka moments and war easier?
 
It's hard to say because we don't know how you're playing. But the main difference with slower paces is that units move faster (relatively). Since humans are way better at moving units (and positioning them in a war) than the AI, it's usually easier.

In your very first games this may not be the case, of course, because you lack the experience. And if you fall behind and get invaded by a superior army, it can be harder to get out of trouble (because it will take longer to put together a defense force / walls).
 
Mostly depends on the difficulty. On deity the extra units the AI starts with can easily kill you before you can build/buy your own on epic speed.

Barbs are also a lot harder on epic speed (and a lot easier on online speed).
 
It depends on circumstances. I believe Babylon and Mali really benefit from the increased scales - their abilities are instantaneous and so shine all the more when it takes a long time to do anything that takes time. Germany, who specialises in hard production, would probably suffer.
That said, all being equal, I imagine it gets easier on longer times. You get more time to ensure that you get the Eurekas/Insojrarions, but also winning battles become more impactful, since it takes a long time to recover, and humans are generally better at that than the AI. As a result, I think longer is easier, but as always with these things, YMMV.
 
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I believe Babylon and Mali really benefit from the increased scales - their abilities are instantaneous and so shine all the more when it takes a long time to do anything that takes time. Germany, who specialises in hard production, would probably suffer.

I dont know about this. Either costs, production and gold, will increase with game speed as well. Mali can still buy units/buildings/etc of. They wont earn more gold per turn though while still having to pay the higher price so you will take more turns here as well. Also Babylon can still speed through the tech tree but will have to pay even more gold/spend more production on these advanced units than on normal speed (for example 250 gold per crossbow upgrade becomes 375 per upgrade on epic).
The real difference is that you can use your units more often so you have an easier time at war (more movement and combat per era). So I guess everyone with war focus will have the advantage on epic speed like scythia or sumer who get more turns for their rushes.
 
I like playing on large or huge maps. Is the speed balanced in these cases?
Well, that makes sense because distances are bigger (with quick pace and a huge map, it takes an age to reach the other side of the world), but epic pace slows down too much for me in the second half.
Personally, I go for quick pace on small maps and normal pace on large and huge maps and then use this mod https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2176927489 to slow down the research pace. (But I would recommend to play a couple of normal games before experimenting)
 
I tried playing at different speeds, Prince or King. I like the pacing to be epic on large or huge maps. Live the eras more. However, I noticed that towards the end of the game, the victory moments of the war and the eureka seemed easier to achieve than the standard speed. I wanted to know an opinion from leading experts.
 
I dont know about this. Either costs, production and gold, will increase with game speed as well. Mali can still buy units/buildings/etc of. They wont earn more gold per turn though while still having to pay the higher price so you will take more turns here as well. Also Babylon can still speed through the tech tree but will have to pay even more gold/spend more production on these advanced units than on normal speed (for example 250 gold per crossbow upgrade becomes 375 per upgrade on epic).
The real difference is that you can use your units more often so you have an easier time at war (more movement and combat per era). So I guess everyone with war focus will have the advantage on epic speed like scythia or sumer who get more turns for their rushes.
Sure, the cost scales, but the advantage it brings scales too. The hig advantage that Mali has (and Portugal) is thst they can buy things instantly. Sure, how much it costs also scales to be worse, and that's fine, no different to the cost in production that other civs have to deal with, but what is advantageous, the ability to buy when and where you need it and not x amount of turns ahead, is all that much the better. Mali's advantage isn't that gold is an easier resource to obtain, but that gold gives you instant buys. It may not mean more units overall, but having it on demand rather than trying to predict ahead is his strength. Plus it's gold, so he can support more units than others anyway.

Babylon has slightly different logic. Killing a unit with a slinger might save a normal civ (say) 4 turns on normal speed due to the Eureka and let's say 8 turns on slow. For Babylon, it saves 10 turns (so their ability saves 6 compared to a normal civ) on normal, while they save 20 turns (so their ability saves them 12). That better increase means alot when war is being conducted at normal pace. While everyone else is struggling to research, you're getting entire free techs, which often is not constrained by speed.

Let's take a practical (but simplified) example, Babylon and England both found their first city on coast. Free sailing for Babylon and 40% for England.

Saves Babylon say 13 turns on normal or 26 on slow. Let's say that they then send a Builder to explore across the water. So, founding their city on the coast saves them an additional 13 turns.

England does the exact same thing. On the normal speed, theyd save 40% so have to spend 7 turns researching and then can send that builder, so on normal speed, Babylon gets a 7 turn head start. Not bad. On slow though, that's 14 turns. The builder can uncover a lot of distance in 14 turns, which means the advantage Babylon gained from their ability in that instance was double what it would have been on normal speed.

That's obviously highly contrived to make it simple, but the point is there: instant techs are more valuable on slow speeds than high ones.


The ability scales positively with slower speed, and becomes better as you slow things down.
 
Sure, the cost scales, but the advantage it brings scales too. The hig advantage that Mali has (and Portugal) is thst they can buy things instantly. Sure, how much it costs also scales to be worse, and that's fine, no different to the cost in production that other civs have to deal with, but what is advantageous, the ability to buy when and where you need it and not x amount of turns ahead, is all that much the better. Mali's advantage isn't that gold is an easier resource to obtain, but that gold gives you instant buys. It may not mean more units overall, but having it on demand rather than trying to predict ahead is his strength. Plus it's gold, so he can support more units than others anyway.

But all of this is still true on other gamespeeds. Mali can insta buy units at every speed. So they dont have to predict where they need the units as much as other civs do. What is the exact advantage a slower speed gives them here?

Babylon has slightly different logic. Killing a unit with a slinger might save a normal civ (say) 4 turns on normal speed due to the Eureka and let's say 8 turns on slow. For Babylon, it saves 10 turns (so their ability saves 6 compared to a normal civ) on normal, while they save 20 turns (so their ability saves them 12). That better increase means alot when war is being conducted at normal pace. While everyone else is struggling to research, you're getting entire free techs, which often is not constrained by speed.

Let's take a practical (but simplified) example, Babylon and England both found their first city on coast. Free sailing for Babylon and 40% for England.

Saves Babylon say 13 turns on normal or 26 on slow. Let's say that they then send a Builder to explore across the water. So, founding their city on the coast saves them an additional 13 turns.

England does the exact same thing. On the normal speed, theyd save 40% so have to spend 7 turns researching and then can send that builder, so on normal speed, Babylon gets a 7 turn head start. Not bad. On slow though, that's 14 turns. The builder can uncover a lot of distance in 14 turns, which means the advantage Babylon gained from their ability in that instance was double what it would have been on normal speed.

This can work the other way around as well though. What if you are not able to found a coastal city or get another critical heureka for an important tech and you have to research it not even without the 40% from the heureka but also with 50% less science per turn? Your example might be strong for a coastal start for this exact one tech and maybe cartography later on. And if you are not going to take naval scouting as an example it is even less relevant of an advantage. If you unlock a building giving 2 yields (lets say science) early and build it immediately you will get the extra yields for 50% more turns and get more science from this as result. But you will also need 50% more science to unlock techs so the advantage here is not any different than on faster speeds.
 
What is the exact advantage a slower speed gives them here?

They get more turns to do something with the unit they buy. Movement doesn't scale.

To put it another way, they get more unit actions out of their investment. And an invader can hurt you longer if you have to build your stuff first. If Monty shows up at your door and you need 10 turns to build an archer or a wall, it's good to have money lying around.
 
But all of this is still true on other gamespeeds. Mali can insta buy units at every speed. So they dont have to predict where they need the units as much as other civs do. What is the exact advantage a slower speed gives them here?

The advantage is that on slower speeds, you're getting the unit for longer. On a fast speed you might a unit a few turns early, but on a slow speed you're getting it a lot quicker. That's Mali's game - he doesn't have to wait for something to be built. The slower the game, the bigger that advantage becomes. I can rush a 5 turn item on fast, or a 20 turn item on slow.

As for Babylon, what you say is logical, but focuses too much on the specific point rather than on the spirit of it. The only disadvantage Babylon has is in researching. We've seen over and over the complaints that Babylon is OP because its 100% Eureka more than compensates for it's 50% research malus, leading to ridiculously early techs. That doesn't take into account the soft advantages like the scouting advantage I mentioned. The advantage of insta techs would only be magnified by the slower speeds.
 
You still need some turns to get the gold to buy a unit. Its not like you like you get gifted 1152 gold to buy 4 arches once war is declared on you. You need to build up your gpt first like you have to build up your production as well. So whats the difference between waiting a few turns to buy just one archer or hardbuilding a few (since every city can build one at the same time while you will spend the gold from all your cities for one archer) in the same time?
Sure Mali can build units as well in the same time but Mali is the worst civ to do so. Not only do they get -30% production for units their mines will also grant lower base prodcution as well. So if you slot agoge and translate that lower base production to gold you needed 6 (4,8 if you have a suguba and get the 20% reduction for buying things) gold extra to make up for this (1 production is 4 gold if you buy stuff). And its not like every other civs cant buy archers. For walls it is even worse for mali since they can't buy them with gold and have to accept the 30% malus for them.
Later on you have some units and walls to defend yourself anyway since you need some for eurekas for example. Also getting the first units cheap and then use the cards to upgrade them with discount is still more efficient than hard buying all those later, expensive ones.
And if you go to an offensive war you can prepare accordingly.

I agree that Babylon is OP. Completely. I just dont think they get an additional above avarage advantage from slower game speeds. Even babylon needs some time to get to pike and shots and all the things you have to build for eurekas are more expensive for them as well. Sure once they reach those pike and shots and bombards they have more turns to use them. But why should this be a bigger advantage for them than for scythia doing their horseman rush or sumeria who have more turns for their war carts? You also have nubia, aztecs, gaul and macedon who are great at early rushes and can take advantage of the game speed at least at the same time. Actually you can rush with every other civ in the game as well and enjoy the "free" turns with your units its just 3 techs to horseman plus another 2 to get an encampment for the first GG (and two of these techs dont even have heurekas).
If you dont use units you still have your techs and stuff early. But as I mentioned thats not a big advantage compared to their usual advantage either. Where is the difference if I get my encampment 10 turns earlier (standart speed) so I end up with 10/60 so 1/6 of the points I need for a GG or if I get it 15 turns earlier (epic speed) and end up with 15/90 points for the gg? Thats still 1/6 of a GG.
 
Yes but it's more that faster speeds cover up the AI's crappiness more than anything else. On faster speeds, there's less turns and therefore less chances for the AI to screw up.

Also while build times and research scale with speed, movement does not. This means that units obsolete faster on faster speeds and you have less turns to use them and this results in fewer fights. We all know fights are usually in the human's favor.

Because the AI starts with a tech advantage on difficulties above Prince,. this further masks their weakness because they can simply brute force you with more advanced units.
 
What is the exact advantage a slower speed gives them here?

Reaction time: it takes longer to react to events.

War is easier because the enemy cannot build Walls fast enough to prevent you to take the city, nor train Archer fast enough to fight back. If you are able to conquer a city in epic speed without loosing anything, you can also conquer all the empire.

Aposltes can destroy Missionnaries once an AI buy one, go back to your home territory to heal and go back and wait to kill the next Missionnary just in time. You can kill every religion at birth with just a few religious units because you can reach them fast enough and convert the newly born city each time.

Governors do not have longer time to establish themselves. Magnus is enjoying this a lot of this micromanaging:
  • Groundbreaker: Harvest is king of early game. Being able to maximise all the chop value by switching around is real gain.
  • Provision: You could also juggle Magnus between two or three cities just in time to prevent the Population loss. This also have a huge synergy with chopping.
  • Black Marketeer: What prevent a unit with strategic ressource to be trained is mostly the Strategic Cost. You could put Magnus in the city, start the training of the unit with only 20% of its Strategic cost, then put Magnus to another city while the units is training. You could have an army fast with few Strategic ressource that way.
  • All Governors that have 1-time action where the main constraint is establishment than undergoing effect like:
    • Embrasure: When a city is about to finish to train a military unit, put Victor just in time for the free Promotion.
    • Citadel of God: When a city is about to finish to build something, put Moksha just in time for Faith gain.
    • Divine Architect: Buy districts with Faith, and do the great Tour easier.
    • Guildmaster: When a city is about to finish to train a Builder, put Liang just in time for the extra charge.
    • Zone Commissioner: Always build districts with the +20% Production modifiers.

If you like micromanaging: you have an advantage. The AI is not programed to take advantage of all of this.
 
I haven't played any epic speed games, but online speed Deity is definitely a good deal harder than standard speed or even quick speed. Classical golden ages get much tougher as you don't find as many goody huts and pulling off a successful neighbor kill is more challenging. Small mistakes get magnified since the impact of a single lost turn is so much more.

I suspect a lot of the same things are true when comparing standard and epic, but epic does have the added difficulty on early defense.
 
Reaction time: it takes longer to react to events.

But thats also true for Mali (they are "them" in the question). Sure they can buy units but its also more expensive for them to buy units at slower speeds. So they will have a longer reaction time compared to normal speed as well when they get attacked. An archer is 288 gold for them - if the already build a suguba in the city where they buy the unit. So if they want to survive an AI rush they need to have a bank around 1000 gold early into the game. Even Mali cant accomplish this by the time the AI rushes you. And in that case you are just better off if you dont have a disadvantage at building units. Also dont forget that Mali cant buy repairs so once they get pillaged (desert storms) they need lots of time to build up again with their malus.
In general you should build more military early in the game in general to not get attacked at all (since the AI will be scared if you have enough military) or go offensive yourself if you play on slower speeds. So buying units when you need them is nothing that gives you an above avarage advantage on slower speeds. Getting units faster than every one else does. And thats why Scythia (double light cavalry units), Nubia (30% more production torwards ranged units) and on naval maps norway (+50% production torwards naval melee units) have the biggest advantage from playing on slower speeds imo.
 
Even Mali cant accomplish this by the time the AI rushes you.
Nobody can do it by the time ai rushes you on slow speeds. Many combat tactical advantages people talked also applied to AI at game start. Once they kick your door you are dead. It's not a Mali thing.
 
Nobody can do it by the time ai rushes you on slow speeds. Many combat tactical advantages people talked also applied to AI at game start. Once they kick your door you are dead. It's not a Mali thing.

Exactly. But when you dont have the gold to insta buy units when you need them the most anyway and have a higher chance to get kicked out of the game since you are literally the worst civ for hard building units fast as well why should insta buying units be such a big thing that Mali gets rated as one of the civs who profits most from slower game speeds?
 
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