Does morality work without a deity?

[Flying Pig]

The best from our point of view, perhaps, but evolution doesn't work to produce creatures that will meet the approval of a tiny subset of other creatures. More to the point, it's entirely situational: organisms are adapted to do as well as possible in their environment. There's no such thing as a 'better' or a 'worse' organism, only one that fits in its environment better or worse than another.

And evolution doesn't work according to human nature, even if we ignore the problems of marking out exactly what that means.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Human nature IS the product off evolution albeit not final. Simple organism have evolved into more complex and there wouldnt be any human without bacteria but since we have an intelligence we can use it to discriminate and see that not everything has the same stature. We cant act and try function as bacteria or virus just becouse in some aspect it is more succesfull then humans. Impossible.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

How so? Isnt the complex inteligent self-conscious creature quite obviously the best evolution has achieved so far? Does succes require just mere being? That would be contrary to human nature which constantly strives for development.

Actually, yes, the only requirement for success in evolutionary terms is "mere being."

Humans may consider ourselves a success because we are far better at manipulating our environment than other species, but the fact is that we really haven't existed very long in comparison to most other species.

Evolution, and nature itself, do not care which species "win" and which species "lose." Nature is indifferent on this matter, and in fact does not care if any species exist at all.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Physical survival and its instincts are quite obviously essential to evolution but we can see in case of humans that once that is secured attention is turned to refinement and development of subtler parts of existence. Not many people are satisfied with just a mere being. We are driven to fulfill our lives with something more...

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

So humans where not created? There seems to be only two options. Either at the conception of life was non-inteligence(at least in strictly human sense) or some form of larger inteligence (again unlikely fitting human standards). In either case this force is superior to our human capacity and remains driving force behind human life and the future evolution which now partly self-conscious but also only partly self-controled man has only limited ability to influence.

 

[warpus]

Well tell me what is it then or how you understand it.

There is no such thing as the pinnacle of evolution, because there is no ultimate goal of the evolutionary process. Even if we were the most impressive examples of evolution, which in many ways we are, it wouldn't mean that we're a "pinnacle of evolution". Evolution doesn't work towards a goal. There is no blueprint there, similar to the Civ tech tree, where evolution advances from A to B. It doesn't work like that.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

There is no such thing as the pinnacle of evolution, because there is no ultimate goal of the evolutionary process. Even if we were the most impressive examples of evolution, which in many ways we are, it wouldn't mean that we're a "pinnacle of evolution". Evolution doesn't work towards a goal. There is no blueprint there, similar to the Civ tech tree, where evolution advances from A to B. It doesn't work like that.

I am talking of present day state of evolution. I dont think evolution is finnished process.
By saying evolution doesnt work towards goal you are ignoring lot of evidence. Material world is secured by physical laws, living forms of existence by instincts, mental creatures by intuitive aspirations in order to preserve any achieved stage. Thats not anything like chaotic process without goal but rather its opposite. That goal doesnt need to have human level standards. Just the sheer time scale is completely out of human proportions but we are not the possesors of consciousnes/intelligence in any form to make the proper judgment yet.

 

[warpus]

It's a process driven by natural selection and not any sort of plan. To suggest a "pinnacle" implies that evolution is working towards a goal - which would allow us to determine at which part of the evolutionary process a creature lies - and whether it lies closer to the pinnacle or not.

But that's not how it works. Creatures adapt to specific environments - evolutionary pressures simply allow them to adapt to environments and potentially thrive in them. A creature that thrives in one environment might very well die out if it was placed in another.

You can't say that there is a thing such as the pinnacle of evolution, because that would force you to pick one type of ecosystem over another. A human does very well on land in specific settings - but not very well at the bottom of the ocean - where other creatures thrive. A human often does not even do well on land either, when alone, without tools, and in the habitat of another creature - say the lion or other predators.

Pinnacle is just the wrong word to use, because it implies a bunch of things that aren't true. "Most impressive example of evolution we've come across thus far" would make a lot more sense, for example.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Virus is the most impressive then. Just place the man on the bottom of an ocean and see how unimpressive he becomes.
Btw natural selection isnt in anyway in opposition to some sort of plan. What I am saying is that plan doesnt have to be(cant be) concieved on and from human mental level becouse its nature is almost opposite (and also more complex) to what we withness in case of evolotionary processes.

 

[warpus]

It isn't in opposition to the idea of a plan in theory, but there is no plan. That's the point.

 

[bhavv]

If humans are a creation of some organised plan, then whatever organised that plan must be incompetent if we are the best it could come up with.

Humans suck.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

It isn't in opposition to the idea of a plan in theory, but there is no plan. That's the point.

Just like that? Or you have some argument too? At least you keep your peace of mind...

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

If humans are a creation of some organised plan, then whatever organised that plan must be incompetent if we are the best it could come up with.

Humans suck.

Humans both suck and are amazing. Thats the way our mind functions and relates to the world around. And thats what we essentialy are: mental beings. But the plan isnt finito -- evolution goes on.

 

[warpus]

Just like that? Or you have some argument too? At least you keep your peace of mind...

An argument for what? My argument is that since there is no plan, we can't be the pinnacle of a plan. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

An argument for what? My argument is that since there is no plan, we can't be the pinnacle of a plan. It just doesn't make sense.

Argument for why evolution isnt streamed for some plan/goal.

 

[Flying Pig]

I think the onus is rather on the other side for that one!

 

[warpus]

Argument for why evolution isnt streamed for some plan/goal.

Because that's just what evolution is. There is no plan. It's one of the fundamental axioms of the theory of evolution in a way - if you don't see that or don't understand it, then I would read up on what evolution actually is - because maybe you're misinformed in some way. I don't mean to say this in a snarky tone, it's just that.. Once you understand the basics of evolution, you would understand that there is no plan. It'd be like saying that tectonic plate movements follow a plan - they don't, they just follow natural forces. There is no design or plan to get the continents to look this way or that. Things just happen and you get what you get.

 

[Perfection]

Argument for why evolution isnt streamed for some plan/goal.

Evolution doesn't have a mind. It therefore can't be said to have plans or goals. However, through evolution creatures with plans/goals can come into being.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I think the onus is rather on the other side for that one!

I gave an example of instincts etc. Or take example with pain. Not to feel pain is undoubtedly superior state of being than otherwise yet with advancing evolution the capacity for pain increases. Why? The lower on scale of evolution the more mechanical/instinctive processes are. Why is evolution moving from that to more sentiment and unbalanced forms?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Evolution doesn't have a mind. It therefore can't be said to have plans or goals. However, through evolution creatures with plans/goals can come into being.

I would agree. Evolution doesnt have a mind but is part of some wider inteligence. If not then limitations and harmony it works within would be impossible and pure chaos would be the supreme state and goal.