Does Random Exist?

[Narz]

I have a theory that random does not exist. It cannot be proven, correct? Computers cannot generate true random, right?

Thoughts?

 

[Meleager]

I dont know too much about this but I think you are right.

Computers are determanistic and therefore can only create psudorandom numbers. Here is a PDF on random number generation http://www.mathworks.com/moler/random.pdf

Outside of computers i believe that their is a theory that if you know the location of every particle in the universe at any one time then you can predict everything. Ofcourse they cant prove that.

 

[Mise]

Outside of computers i believe that their is a theory that if you know the location of every particle in the universe at any one time then you can predict everything. Ofcourse they cant prove that.

Quantum Physics has largely disproved that notion (Newton said it in the 17th Century).

Yes, random does exist, and the laws of nature have an elegant way showing it.

 

[The Last Conformist]

According to quantum mechanics, the world contains an irreducible random (stochastic, non-deterministic) element.

Observationally, some natural phenomena, like the decay of radionucleids, seems perfectly stochastic.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

For computers: www.random.org provides you true random numbers from radioactive decay. There's your true random.

*decides against making a religious post*

 

[Gogf]

I have a theory that random does not exist. It cannot be proven, correct? Computers cannot generate true random, right?

The uncertainty principle is a major part of quantum mechanics.

 

[Meleager]

Ahh, but is any of this random or does it just appear that way?

@ Mise, true but if you knew the location of every proton, gravitron etc etc etc you could still do it (except the uncertianty principal prevents it)

@ Gogf, what does the uncertainty principal have to do with random numbers?

BTW, I am playing devil's avocate a bit here.

EDIT: I was going to leave this but I have to ask,
@erik, how could you make a religious post out of random numbers

 

[Cuivienen]

Quantum Physics has largely disproved that notion (Newton said it in the 17th Century).

Yes, random does exist, and the laws of nature have an elegant way showing it.

But the statement assumed that you could dodge the Uncertainty Principle and know the location of everything. Actually, the Uncertainty Principle doesn't preclude you from knowing the location of everything, anyway - you just could never know the velocity of anything.

 

[stormbind]

I would say that random events may appear to exist, but believing in them seems to me no more than a cop-out (or refusal to admit limited understanding).

 

[stormbind]

BTW, I am playing devil's avocate a bit here.

It is fun, isn't it?

P.S. You can make a religious post out of anything. Theists such as Einstein believe that for God to be in control, nothing can appear random from God's perspective.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

EDIT: I was going to leave this but I have to ask,
@erik, how could you make a religious post out of random numbers

Seeing as you asked...

Spoiler a comment that should not be set upon and used an excuse for a religious flamewar :

There is no randomness in God's great plan for the universe.

Now let's leave it at that.

I still hold to my previous post - if you define a "computer" to be a normal computer linked to a decaying pile of radioactive material, you get a computer that gives you true random numbers. So there.

 

[Gr3yL3gion]

Yes(ten thousand characters)

 

[Marla_Singer]

It depends on your definition of random. If random is about events which happen despite your will, than random exists unless Humans are proven omniscient.

To give you an example. When you roll a dice, you can scientifically explain through physics why it would fall on one particular face. However, when you, as Humans, roll it, you willfully ignore those considerations so that it doesn't depend on your will. It's the same stuff when you flip a coin.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Thought is random.

 

[Perfection]

Ahh, but is any of this random or does it just appear that way?

@ Mise, true but if you knew the location of every proton, gravitron etc etc etc you could still do it (except the uncertianty principal prevents it)

There is no absolute location for every proton graviton, etc. They are in probability fields

@ Gogf, what does the uncertainty principal have to do with random numbers?

It demonstrates that the strict-deterministic (non-random) universe is false

 

[Perfection]

I would say that random events may appear to exist, but believing in them seems to me no more than a cop-out (or refusal to admit limited understanding).

Why? All scientific measure of the phenomena reveals no determinism. The assumption of determinism in the face of evidence indicative of it not being deterministic is silly

It depends on your definition of random. If random is about events which happen despite your will, than random exists unless Humans are proven omniscient.

To give you an example. When you roll a dice, you can scientifically explain through physics why it would fall on one particular face. However, when you, as Humans, roll it, you willfully ignore those considerations so that it doesn't depend on your will. It's the same stuff when you flip a coin.

That may be true on the large scale, but in the realm of itty-bitty subatomic particles it is not.

 

[stormbind]

Why? All scientific measure of the phenomena reveals no determinism. The assumption of determinism in the face of evidence indicative of it not being deterministic is silly

"Why?" is the very reason!

 

[Truronian]

I'd say:

On a large scale yes
On a smaller scale no
On an even smaller scale, maybe.

That may be true on the large scale, but in the realm of itty-bitty subatomic particles it is not.

That is of course unprovable, though there is a chance its correct

 

[Masquerouge]

Is "random" "unpredictable" ? Because I've seen a fountain constructed to behave in an unpredictable pattern

http://www.cite-sciences.fr/francais/ala_cite/expo/explora/mathematiques/math_16.htm

Sorry, no english translation. But basically it's a fountain made of 12 conical shapes with a hole at the bottom. They receive water at the top of the fountain, and let it leak all the way as they turn. Depending on how many shapes contain how much water, the fountain will turn this way or that way (take a look at the picture to have a better idea).
It is impossible to predict the movement of the fountain after a few minutes ; is that random ?

 

[sourboy]

Does 'random' exist?

Well, depends on your beliefs. If you feel everything happens for a reason - then 'no' - there is no 'random'. However, if you believe everything is a combination of chance and choice, then of course 'random' exists.

Personally - as was stated earlier - it should be obvious, just by looking at nature.