[GS] Does Religion need a tweak?

[acluewithout]

As I mentioned in another thread, I was watching TheGameMechanic's Twitch Stream and there was a conversation between TGM and Carl at Firaxis about Relgion.

Basically, TGM said Religion needed more work, and Carl said "how?".

TGM said (1) make Relics easier to get (eg maybe mid / late game Great Prophets grant Relics), and (2) beliefs need a rework similar to Pantheons.

From the chat, I got the feeling FXS (or at least Carl) were interested in looking a Religion again.

Do people think FXS should revisit Religion? If so, what are the problems? How should they be addressed?

Some initial thoughts from me.

• Overall Mechanics. I like the overall mechanics for Religion, particularly now excess GPP give faith. I like the race to found a Religion, I like the cap on no. Religions, I like adding in beliefs, I like the units and how Religion spread is a combination of Religious Combat, Spreads and Trade / Passive, I like the cool relationship between Religion / Faith and Culture (and to a lesser extent Science). It's all good stuff.

• That said, yeah, I think Religion could use another look. Religion has been a little underwhelming, and I think more so with all the other changes that have been made to the game via Patches. Religion is good, but I think it does need a refresh / reboot to update it to the current game.

• Relics. I agree with TGM that Relics could be easier to get. I basically only get them via Goody Huts (I don't often rush a Religion). I don't like the idea of GP continuing to be recruited all game - I think there are enough Great People as it is. But yeah, it could be a little easier to get Relics.

• Beliefs. I agree with TGM that beliefs also need another look along the same lines as Pantheons just got. Many beliefs are quite weak, and they could just use a general revamp and reboot.

• Units. So, I currently think FXS have missed three opportunities with Religion. First, I'd like to see more Unique Religious Units unlock via Beliefs, like how Monks do. Indeed, I think Gurus should have unlocked via a Belief rather than be available to everyone. I think this is a big missed opportunity. Having unique units unlock via beliefs would make Beliefs more valuable and desirable, and would also help address the current problem that every world religion has the same units, every game, all game. It would also add more asymmetry and dynanism to Religious Combat.

• Loyalty. Second, I think the other missed opportunity is Religion not having even more impact on Loyalty, eg even just as simple as some Beliefs or Religious buildings that actually boost loyalty. The +/-3 loyalty for following a founded Religion that FXS patched in was just such an awesome, awesome change and made religion, loyalty and war way more interesting. Loyalty and Relgion just seem like such a natural fit - I really want to see Cities changing hands because of shifts in Religion (and not just if you founded the Religion). I think a little more mechanics in that direction would be just awesome and make the game much richer.

• Diplomacy. Third, I think Religion should also have a little more impact on Diplomacy. Even something as simple as owning a Holy City giving you more Diplo Favour. Even if the bonus to Diplomacy is purely just flavour.

 

[Buni0ns]

Belifes could use a look for sure. I disagree with limiting units to certain beliefs but I also think religious units should require a faith ukeep cost. Rock bands too for that matter. Anything to cut down on the carpets of doom.

Perhaps a Holy knight mounted unit?

 

[Scrabbler]

I agree that religion could benefit from a major overhaul. There is a lot to like about the mechanics in Civ 5/Civ 6, but on balance I still prefer the implementation in Civ 4 overall.

Specific suggestions:

1) Incentivise players to spread other civs' religions by changing the mechanic that the founder is the sole owner of a religion. Allow players to found multiple religions.
2) Bring back state religions and make this an important part of diplomacy.
3) Historical flavour is important for immersion. In Civ 6, unless someone is going for a religious victory I just don't care about what is happening. For example, Christianity could have the following features:

• Can only be founded by a Classical era prophet
• Spread rate is higher than Ancient era religions
• Unique wonders such as Notre Dame and Sistine Chapel can be built by any player with this religion
• Any player with Christianity can use a prophet to enhance this religion
• Any player with Christianity can build the St Peter's Basilica wonder that enables religious victory
• Any player can use a prophet to schism into Protestantism or Eastern Orthodoxy

 

[acluewithout]

I really like the mechanic around Warrior Monks, even if the Monks themselves are a bit limited. I just feel it's a bit of a missed opportunity not having a few more units unlocking the way Monks do.

The Beliefs really aren't in a great place. I think a few are undervalued- eg feed the world. But others like Work Ethic (or whatever it's called) really don't seem to do much. The Tier 3 buildings also feel a bit weak - eg Work House.

On another note, I think when Religion comes up there's often comments that the whole thing should be overhauled (state Religion etc). But I really wonder if that's right ? obviously Religion could work very differently, but maybe the current system would actually be really cracking if it just had a bit of a tweak. That would certainly be easier to acheive than a complete "rework".

 

[AntSou]

I wouldn't like a major overhaul of the kind suggested by Scrabbler. I think the system he mentioned based on Civ IV is fine, but I wouldn't want to see Firaxis divert that much effort into it at this stage.

But I would support changes, with differing levels of priority:

Very High Priority - Revamped Beliefs. This kind of stuff can be handled with patch updates, so if we only get one change to Religion, this should be it. I think there's overwhelming consensus in the community regarding this point (or maybe I've just been listening to the same people over and over again ) and I see it as absolutely necessary. I think Firaxis will address it at some point.

As for the remaining points, I think they are fair and I would welcome other changes, but if opportunity costs are involved here (I don't know how Firaxis divides their work), I think there's other stuff in the game that needs to be addressed first.

My main pet peeve at the moment are Age dedications. God do they feel dull and repetitive!

 

[acluewithout]

I wouldn't like a major overhaul of the kind suggested by Scrabbler. I think the system he mentioned based on Civ IV is fine, but I wouldn't want to see Firaxis divert that much effort into it at this stage.

But I would support changes, with differing levels of priority:

Very High Priority - Revamped Beliefs. This kind of stuff can be handled with patch updates, so if we only get one change to Religion, this should be it. I think there's overwhelming consensus in the community regarding this point (or maybe I've just been listening to the same people over and over again ) and I see it as absolutely necessary. I think Firaxis will address it at some point.

As for the remaining points, I think they are fair and I would welcome other changes, but if opportunity costs are involved here (I don't know how Firaxis divides their work), I think there's other stuff in the game that needs to be addressed first.

My main pet peeve at the moment are Age dedications. God do they feel dull and repetitive!

Good grief yes. If I had to choose between Religion and Dedications - I'd pick Dedications every time.

Like, can we at least just have 5 dedications per Era? Four is just crazy repetitive, particularly if you keep getting flipping Medieval Heroic Ages!!!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I've mentioned this before but I'm find with a limited amounts of religion being founded. However I think that Great Prophets should have some kind of use outside of just founding a religion. Give all of them an extra ability that uses another charge or is passive based off of their historical counterpart in addition to possibly founding a religion. For example Martin Luther when used grants an Inspiration towards Reformed Church and grants combat strength vs. Civs of other religions, both theological and regular combat. If all the religions have not been founded still he could found one first and then use his ability.

As for Relics I think if one would be able to destroy a Guru unit that would result in receiving a relic and Great Prophets if they could ever be destroyed. Of course I would give John the Baptist the ability to create a relic with his charge anyway.

New worship buildings would be nice such as a Mandir which could grant gold or a Confucian Temple to grant culture.
Crusade belief would be nice to grant you a mounted Paladin unit.

Also at least adding Jainism as a religion would be nice.

 

[acluewithout]

FXS could keep Great Prophets in the game after all Religions are founded, and have the GPs allow for Evangelising and Launching Inquisitions rather than using Apostles. I think that would feel more intuitive.

 

[Aurelesk]

I really want to see Prophets have bonuses like the others Great Peoples. So you have to choose between an early Religion or enjoy the bonuses. You can make that even more trickier by having really good ancient Prophets.

Furthermore, I would like to see others ways to found a religion. For example, the Gurus could also found a Religion but you have to rush toward the Temple building civic, and buy the Gurus to achieve this. This prevent one player to grab all the prohets and prevent others players to found a religion. Furthermore, since you don't have a religion yet, the Guru have to be religionless. So maybe Gurus could become a religionless unit (don't generate negative pressure aura when defeated)

Holy Sity and cities with the worship building should have an innate religious pressure (even if the city follow an other religion), or allow to buy the religious unit of the same religion of the worship even if the city is areligious or follow an other religion (in that case: you could buy units of both religion). This maybe need the ability to change the worship building à la Factory when the city religion and worship building don't match, and allow maybe some bonuses / maluses (Loyalty?) when both match / don't match.

One thing I don't like about Religious victory: not all player can have it. I would like to see a "Reformation" mechanic (when some conditions is met: founding player follow an other religion, holy city was taken...). When met, you could have one city launch a Reformation that follow the same belief of the original religion except it doesn't have a Founder Beliefs. And you could do a late religion game like this if you want this, even if you don't follow the religion.

 

[The googles do nothing]

In Civ 6, unless someone is going for a religious victory I just don't care about what is happening.

It's ok. This is why - I only try for a religious victory at most 5% of the time. Once Choral Music and DoF has been chosen from the Beliefs and i don't try. The other beliefs could be useful for a non-scientific victory but it the amount of faith and button clicks to do so I would rather spend elsewhere.

oh yeah-those high mountain adjacencies are better used of campuses.

 

[Kung-Fu knight]

In real life, many religions have split off from another, larger religion. If not everyone could get a prophet then perhaps in lieu of creating a religion you can create a sect or schism? Mechanically, you could choose one or two beliefs from the parent faith while choosing another belief. This could help civs like Georgia and Spain that need a religion but have no way to actually get one earlier and it would mean that religion need not be entirely forgotten if you don't plan on a religious victory.

 

[cain3456]

If you're allowing three branches of Christianity, there should at least be Sunni & Shiite branches of Islam in the game.

 

[oSiyeza]

The worst thing of civ religion is that is boring. It lacks depth and some imagination. My suggestions:

• Split open borders in three separate diplomatic levels. Open Sea Borders (no more blocking ships passing near the coast), Open Land military borders, And Open Land Civil borders (allows trade routes; allows civil units including religious ones to cross borders; increases the effect of tourism, culture and religious influence between these borders).

• Allow religious units to heal on foreign holy sites of the same religion. And highlight those holy sites when selecting a Religious unit. This is the way it always should have been, it would reduce the tediousness, and makes more sense.

• Disable auto religion lens on religious units. Is ugly, and sometimes makes impossible to see anything.

• Great Theologians. Great person type with special abilities and also would act as strong religious unit if not consumed. Always generate a relic when killed.

• New World Congress proposals and Policies for religion.

• Special building in the Government plaza, cause theocracies are a thing.

• Project. Proclaim state religion: Converts your capital to a religion currently in your empire, with less influence from other religions and increased influence to outside for a while.

• The religion of the capital, will be the official religion of the civ. The majoritarian religion of the civ is the one with more followers. If they are different, both count in diplomacy.

• Diplomatic option to suggest or demand a country to proclaim a state religion.
  
• Option in City states you are a suzerain of to proclaim a state religion.

And finally:

• Add the Esoteric Order of Dagon as a Game religion!

 

[The Kingmaker]

Make religion like government, where you can switch out cards for your belief system.