Does Stalin really belong in the game?

[Napalm102]

Remind me to hire you as one of my advisors after i take over the world

You are too late, I took over the world on many occasions already. Trust me, quite a bit of time you end up with a nuclear waste land. Although no one really coplained about genocide or millions of slaves killed. I wonder.

 

[Grimz101]

You are too late, I took over the world on many occasions already. Trust me, quite a bit of time you end up with a nuclear waste land. Although no one really coplained about genocide or millions of slaves killed. I wonder.

Guess ill have to settle for the moon
But when we have Fusion mastered we are sooo gonna kick your ass

 

[AppleTheMan]

The egyptians and Romans also killed LOTS of Jews... hmm... maybe we should take them out as well...

Oh wait...

There's only leaders left! Gandhi and Lincoln! Oh no!

Wasn't Stalin in Civ I? or was it CivII? BTW, I don't know if anyone played the BTS WWII mod, but ALL of the real leaders of the time are there. Churchill, Mussolini, Stalin, Roosevelt, all except Hitler. It's really silly... get over it people. They put a guy who looks just like Hitler, has the same mustache, but gave him white hair and called him Von Papen. Excuse me, but in July 1939, Von Paper was not the leader of Germany, Hitler was.

This game is a historically based game. History is full of tyrants! In warcraft, you can play the humans, or the orcs. That's what makes it a great game.

 

[Arabian Archer]

yeah, warcraft were greatgames..

This game is great too and this is just the way it turned out to be.
The developers can't leave the tyrants out.PERIOD.

stop making a fuss abt nothing, this game is not about ethics.
Hey, we kill slaves for production, what are you talking about? This way, calculate how many slaves you sacrificed and see, if you playing as Ghandhi killed more people then stalin/hitler. You'll be suprised

You can actually be a good guy with stalin too, so if you feel that stalin was a bad man, GO RE-WRITE HISTORY with this game! go make him a peace-whore!

 

[caketastydelish]

yeah, warcraft were greatgames..

This game is great too and this is just the way it turned out to be.
The developers can't leave the tyrants out.PERIOD.

stop making a fuss abt nothing, this game is not about ethics.
Hey, we kill slaves for production, what are you talking about? This way, calculate how many slaves you sacrificed and see, if you playing as Ghandhi killed more people then stalin/hitler. You'll be suprised

You can actually be a good guy with stalin too, so if you feel that stalin was a bad man, GO RE-WRITE HISTORY with this game! go make him a peace-whore!

touche

 

[a4phantom]

Remind me to hire you as one of my advisors after i take over the world

I'm not sure I want to be the guy who tells the world dictator what he doesn't want to hear.

No one can question my powers of thread derailment
now lets move on so we can reach 100 pages in this thread!

If Hitler was so evil how comes he managed to have a girlfriend!
Does this mean she was evil too?
and why dont i have one ?

Spoiler :

Because i have ten

/discuss

You see this all the time, nice girls in love with jerks
What could they be thinking, tell me how it works

 

[Comrade Alex]

Germany was pretty much buggered after Stalingrad.

POLL POLL POLL!

 

[elgado]

Another leader I have issue with is Spain's Isabella. Though she and King Ferdinand ruled Spain together, it's plain to see that the deciding factor in her being chosen as Spain's ruler was the mere fact that she was a woman.

To their credit, the developers in charge of creating leaders didn't keep Jeanne D'Arc as the French leader; choosing her over the likes of Napoleon and Louis "L'État, c'est moi" the Fourteenth cheapened that aspect of the game for me.



As for Ghengis Khan and the Mongols, they killed a significantly higher percentage of the world population than the Nazis or Soviets did, all in the name of Eurasian lebensraum. In objectively addressing this ethical question, it makes little difference whether the estimated 30 million victims of the Mongols hoardes were murdered in the last century or a few centuries before that.

Lastly, the people then knew -- or should have known -- better. Though the Geneva Convention is a product of the 20th Century, the idea that civilians be spared from the ravages of war is not at all new. Born a century before Christ, Rome's Cicero outlined three fundamental rules of war:
1- that it have just cause
2- that it be formally declared
3- that it be conducted justly (no slaughtering of non-combatants i.e., no Rape of Nanking, Warsaw Ghetto, Sack of Baghdad)



All that said and done, I don't see why Hitler ought to be added to the next installment of Civ as I don't think his rule as being more than a 6-year throw-at-the-dice war. At the same time, I wouldn't be offended by his inclusion into the game, much less into another WW2 mod (in which case his inclusion should be seen as a given).

 

[Mattimeo]

Civilization is a great game, with great leaders.

Stalin and Hitler were both great rulers. Overly cruel, yes, but great. They both managed to take control over millions of people and multiple other countries. Tell me how they weren't great.

 

[a4phantom]

Stalin and Hitler were both great rulers. Overly cruel, yes, but great. They both managed to take control over millions of people and multiple other countries. Tell me how they weren't great.

Hitler got his head handed to him, and the world uses him as a modern incarnation of ultimate evil while his own country tries to pretend he never existed.

"Overly cruel, yes, but great."?

 

[Wodan]

Another leader I have issue with is Spain's Isabella. Though she and King Ferdinand ruled Spain together, it's plain to see that the deciding factor in her being chosen as Spain's ruler was the mere fact that she was a woman.

I think you have a point but I wouldn't take it nearly so far. Isabella had a huge amount of political influence and power.

So, was Isabella chosen over some of the strong kings because of her gender? Yes, I think so. Was she chosen only because she was a woman? No way.

Wodan

 

[a4phantom]

Didn't most rulers in the pre-democratic eras get their position by being the son of the right father? Picking on Isabella seems unfair to the point where there's probably a bad inquisition joke to be made.

 

[Comrade Alex]

I belive the decision to not include Hitler in the WWII mods was based upon tact. There are still many people alive who remember not only the Holocaust, but the numerous Nazi purges and invasions.
Stalin isn't villified in this same way, in Russia he is depicted as a great leader who defended the USSR from the encroaching German hordes. The stigmatism of Stalin really only exists in the west.

:/

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Didn't most rulers in the pre-democratic eras get their position by being the son of the right father? Picking on Isabella seems unfair to the point where there's probably a bad inquisition joke to be made.

The joke gets even worse if you aren't Christian (whoops, I mean Buddhist).

Showing up in a video game is not honor. Any leader is game, although more obscure ones wouldn't be very interesting.

Who wants to play a USA game as Calvin Coolidge? Raise your hand!

Traits: Er...Financial and....generic? Maybe Boring/Generic! Great traits!

One poster made an excellent point. The player in civ 4 is capable of atrocities that would make hitler and stalin wet their pants, or at least cringe a little bit. Whipping millions and millions of citizens to death...systematically burning entire continents of civilization, SUCCESSFULLY smearing religions from the planet, or just painting the world in fallout after launching one's 120th ICBM. All of this can be done with Gandhi just as easily as Stalin. Maybe easier if you're obsolete .

 

[Wodan]

Didn't most rulers in the pre-democratic eras get their position by being the son of the right father? Picking on Isabella seems unfair to the point where there's probably a bad inquisition joke to be made.

How do you think Isabella got her position? Take one guess who her father was.

Wodan

 

[elgado]

I think you have a point but I wouldn't take it nearly so far. Isabella had a huge amount of political influence and power.

So, was Isabella chosen over some of the strong kings because of her gender? Yes, I think so. Was she chosen only because she was a woman? No way.

Wodan

If Isabella and Ferdinand were not co-rulers, but rather leaders with similar accomplishments who happened to rule Spain at different points in time, I'd agree with you 100%. It's the fact that the two ruled Spain equally, that leads me to believe that Isabella's being a woman was the deciding factor in her representing Spain. Had Jeanne D'Arc not been France's "leader" in Civ 3, I'd have no reason to suspect gender played a role in leader selection.

In all, it's a minor point. I'd just rather be writing this down than doing stuff I should be working on at the moment.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If Isabella and Ferdinand were not co-rulers, but rather leaders with similar accomplishments who happened to rule Spain at different points in time, I'd agree with you 100%. It's the fact that the two ruled Spain equally, that leads me to believe that Isabella's being a woman was the deciding factor in her representing Spain. Had Jeanne D'Arc not been France's "leader" in Civ 3, I'd have no reason to suspect gender played a role in leader selection.

In all, it's a minor point. I'd just rather be writing this down than doing stuff I should be working on at the moment.

If you wouldn't rather look at Isabella, and you're a man, I don't know what to say .

The fact that she was potentially (likely) given the edge for this reason may be there, but there is nothing wrong with the selection criteria! Super religious chick is funny and very *usable*.

 

[Klunc]

Here's another vote to include whoever was a leader in any period of time as a leader in Civilization. Be that Stalin, Hitler or the guy responsible for bombing several dozens of thousands of innocent people in Japan in 1945.

It's a game about Civilization, extremely bad deeds are just a natural part of it.

 

[kaze88]

Any Russian soldier who retreated during an assault was shot by their own officials.

 

[troytheface]

No wonder they won. They ought to have unique units to the leader and Stalin gets anti-flanking where your unit just dies if first, second, ect strikes fail.
But they are cheap.