Does the AI hate science funding?

[AnonymousSpeed]

So, I've been playing a few deity games lately, with a few immortal mixed in. I've actually gotten to the point where I can survive for quite a few World Congress resolutions. In my experiences, I've noticed a very strange pattern...

Whenever you look at Art Funding, all the other civs want it. Conversely, they don't want Science Funding.

I've noticed this with civs not going for a cultural victory. I've noticed it with warmongers. I've noticed it with Korea. So what gives? Am I just seeing things or is there some weird obsession with Arts Funding?

 

[BruinBound]

It's true that most Civs prefer Arts Funding. There are a couple that will vote with you on Science Funding but it is typically quite rare. What gives? No idea... but if the AI actually focused on science we would all be screwed.

 

[Acken]

I'd wish there was a better balance between the two yes. Civs are a little too focused on culture in BNW.

 

[consentient]

Disable Cultural Victory and they will all LOVE science funding

 

[Lord Yanaek]

A very likely reason for this is AIs (especially on higher difficulties with their social policies discount) will fill 2 - 2.5 trees before they hit renaissance and many will open Aesthetics. They will also probably have a few great works of writing by that time. All this makes them more likely to consider culture victory than science. Since Science/Arts Funding both reduce generation of great people required by the other victory, all the AIs that give a higher weight to culture victory than science will vote against Science Funding.

 

[joncnunn]

In addition, the current science output of that AI matters. There's often 1 or 2 AIs that in early game love Arts Funding that by end game want Science Funding.

Difficulty level doesn't matter for this.

 

[kb27787]

EVERYONE will love science funding at the end (AIs are programmed to switch VC to spaceship once it's clear they won't get culture win); early to mid game everyone likes arts funding.

Also AIs that are reduced to one city through conquest or something will want science instead.

The exception seems to be Venice who loves science from the offset, which is understandable, because of GMoV (and sometimes Songhai and Russia)...

 

[Light Cleric]

EVERYONE will love science funding at the end (AIs are programmed to switch VC to spaceship once it's clear they won't get culture win); early to mid game everyone likes arts funding.

Also AIs that are reduced to one city through conquest or something will want science instead.

The exception seems to be Venice who loves science from the offset, which is understandable, because of GMoV (and sometimes Songhai and Russia)...

I personally think this is a huge problem, the AI atm focuses far too much on culture at the cost of other things when they don't really understand how to win a CV anyway in the first place. In particular, the rate at which the AIs take Piety is insane. Multiple AIs going full Piety first or something like Tradition to Oligarchy then going Aesthetics as soon as it's open is not uncommon and it's terrible. Not as terrible for a Deity AI as a player but still terrible. I see 4-5 AIs in a given game doing some combination of the above way too regularly. It makes playing CV irritating and makes other victory types easier, Science moreso than Domination because the AI will still spam units like there's no tomorrow.

They do switch over at some point but it just takes too long for it to be a serious threat, in part because they gimped themselves in the early-mid game. If the AI is not a serious threat to win before turn 300 then the player basically has a guaranteed win.

 

[NotJim]

I actually think the real reason why AI loves Arts Funding so much is that they will get Drama and Poetry/Guilds techs relatively early, and thus will make artist/writer guilds early (since cheaty prod) and notice that passing arts funding will 'help them' insomuch in that it helps generate more of the thing they're trying to produce (unintentionally), so they'll want to push it. In contrast uni tech/unis themselves will probably be left until much later and those specialist slots might not even be worked.

 

[vanatteveldt]

Disable Cultural Victory and they will all LOVE science funding

do you often disable cultV?
Does this in general make the game harder and/or more interesting?

 

[joncnunn]

Does this in general make the game harder and/or more interesting?

It would actually move up the human seeking either Spaceship or UN victory considerably due to the extra Great Scientists, I'm thinking 2 or 3 extra GS on average so 20 +/- 4 turns saved.
(Subtract from my above number how many turns you can shave off these victories by bulbing extra Great Writers)

This wouldn't stop AIs with high culture flavor from continuing to make guilds and cultural buildings very high priority and so those particular ones won't compete well.

 

[Acken]

I don't really get your comment Jon. I'm not sure science funding would give you that many.

 

[Light Cleric]

If he's talking about Science Funding vs Arts Funding it will, as in +33% vs -33%. Just the base +33% might give you 2 but I doubt 3.

 

[Acken]

Erh, I doubt it. Let me run some maths in Excel.

1 or 2 seems about right but it heavily depends on what time you finishes. For example with the example I took finishing at 220 gives 1 more but finishing at 230 gives 0 (the other caught up). Finishing at 250 gives 2 more while finishing at 280 gives only 1. And so on. Obviously though getting one faster will make you finish faster.

Example used to do the maths 5 cities, 4 with garden, Pisa. Universities on turn 100, schools on turn 150, plastics on turn 180. For ease I put Pisa + Ideology + Science funding on the same turn 160.

Also I compared 33% to 0%. I don't get Art funding very often.

 

[joncnunn]

If he's talking about Science Funding vs Arts Funding it will, as in +33% vs -33%. Just the base +33% might give you 2 but I doubt 3.

Erh, I doubt it. Let me run some maths in Excel.

1 or 2 seems about right but it heavily depends on what time you finishes. For example with the example I took finishing at 220 gives 1 more but finishing at 230 gives 0 (the other caught up). Finishing at 250 gives 2 more while finishing at 280 gives only 1. And so on. Obviously though getting one faster will make you finish faster.

Example used to do the maths 5 cities, 4 with garden, Pisa. Universities on turn 100, schools on turn 150, plastics on turn 180. For ease I put Pisa + Ideology + Science funding on the same turn 160.

Also I compared 33% to 0%. I don't get Art funding very often.

I was comparing -33% to +33% as the AI often proposes Art Funding with all victory conditions enabled to my games with then passes over my No vote.
But even there the 3rd extra GS was for players with less skill (those taking longer than 300 turns)

 

[consentient]

do you often disable cultV?
Does this in general make the game harder and/or more interesting?

Very occasionally I play with either SV or CV disabled. It makes the game less interesting from the POV that you know that all non-DomV civs will be building ships earlier, but more interesting from the POV that you will have to adjust your strategy accordingly. I generally disabled CV and SV if I am actively pursuing DomV or DiploV, to give myself a time limit. When the AI concentrates more, it usually finishes slightly faster.

But it's like 1 in 20 games, if that.

 

[GeneticJD]

I think civilizations generate random personalities each time you start a game, so their policies and beliefs vary.

 

[consentient]

I think civilizations generate random personalities each time you start a game, so their policies and beliefs vary.

Nope. They have very detailed personalities.

See civdata.com for full details.

There is even a setting when you setup a game to CHOOSE Random Personalities. But without that checked, they have definite flavours.

 

[Acken]

Yes. Although flavors are just weighted randomness so you will still see different policies for the same AI.

 

[beetle]

I generally disabled CV and SV if I am actively pursuing DomV or DiploV, to give myself a time limit.

I don't follow, please explain. My biggest obstacle with any VC is getting there before an AI wins by CV or SV (but I do appreciate the challenge aspect of that). Disabling CV and SV would make it pretty easy for me to get a DomV. (So far, I have had to abort my Deity Dom runs for other VC because I just was not moving fast enough. The early conquest was fun, and having all those cities made falling back to other VC feasible, so I don’t regret those games at all.)

I have read that disabling peaceful VC makes the all the AI more aggressive, so that could be interesting. But I don't understand, how does disabling CV or SV give you a time limit?