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Does the AI hold grudges?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by GodDamnItAlexander, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Chieftain

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    So I'm playing Small King Quick Pangea Germany, bordering Maya, Spain and Poland, with Songhai and Siamese elsewhere.
    Maya settles a city in a completely defenseless position right next to me - to the north there are mountains (between the city and the cap), south the coast line, east is me, west is a city state. So I go ahead and do the natural thing when you get an iron start, produce catapults and try to take it. I was a bit worried since Maya was starting to snowball, they already had long-swordsman. But I focus fired the city and took it pretty quickly (he was helpless about it because there was no way for him to get units there in time). Now my border city Hamburg was in a great defensive position with hills and jungles, so I could rain down ranged attacks from above on my unfortunate enemies. He couldn't advance towards it at all.
    Some turns go by, and we sign peace.

    Quiet for some time, Maya really starting to snowball in terms of everything. They have field guns while I, as with the rest of the world, were still using trebuchets. Suddenly, out of nowhere, Poland, Spain and Songhai DoW me! All on the same turn. :confused::confused::confused: A turn after that, Maya DoW me as well.

    Apparently Maya bartered with them to do it (thanks to his very strong economy), as my spy informed me afterwards. He probably must've offered a deal to Siam as well, however we were on good terms.
    Now it isn't even the industrial era and I have units from every direction pouring into my borders as if I'm nearing the end of WW2. :sad:

    I'm asking because beforehand we seemed to be on good terms, he would offer me good money for my cocoa and he even offered me a DoF. It's also weird that he gets almost the whole world against me. First of all he's majorly ahead of everyone, and second by having everyone fight me at the same time it's like he doesn't even hope to get all my cities, but rather he's doing it just to give me the finger.
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Yes they do, and the Maya were being deceptive. The deceptive AI I rewrote does its best to make you feel like they're your friend, meanwhile they are dumping as much money and time as possible into getting the rest of the world to kill you.

    G
     
    DocRockwell likes this.
  3. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Chieftain

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    But what does the AI stand to gain by taking me out using the rest of the world? I'm second last in terms of score. It may get some of my cities, it may get none. If it does eventually get none, it just used resources to help another Civ(s) conquer me and get bigger while remaining the same themselves.
    Also can you expand on the grudges they hold? How do they think? Like will some just Civs not want to trade with me anymore, while others will make it their own personal mission to erase any living sign of me off the face of the earth?

    Forgot to add in the OP that he was very friendly before I took his city, afterwards deal values declined dramatically. If it makes any difference.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  4. ElliotS

    ElliotS Chieftain

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    The player has a pretty big advantage, so it makes sense for the AI to try and get whatever help in can when fighting them. Similarly to if you played multiplayer with another guy you know is better than you at fighting, and team up against him almost regardless of tech advantage. It's not wasteful for the Maya to go from an 80% chance of victory to 100% while giving up some of the profits imo.
     
  5. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    Also, to go back to what Gazebo, said, they just don't like you.
     
    Gazebo likes this.
  6. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Chieftain

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    The question remains. What do they stand to gain from potentially not getting any of my cities. Poland and authority Spain are way behind the Maya, but are ahead of me in score. Maya just spent resources to make someone else stronger.
    If Spain gets all of my cities, the Maya now have a very big authority neighbor, which will bare minimum probably take out their religion.
     
  7. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    Your initial question was, does the AI hold grudges? You pissed them off for some reason, and they're getting you back. It's probably not going to make sense from an objective-gain perspective.
     
  8. ElliotS

    ElliotS Chieftain

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    Because it's unlikely they'll get nothing, and by how annoyed you are you probably had a chance to win without getting gangbanged. So it makes sense.
     
    Owlbebach likes this.
  9. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Chieftain

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    Haha I'm not annoyed. I found the whole thing pretty clever. And I managed to hold off the oppresses (3v1 since Songhai didn't actually send any units) using the worst army in the world. It's amazing what well positioned defensive cities with Orders can do.
     
  10. ElliotS

    ElliotS Chieftain

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    If you managed to not lose 3v1, then how can you claim he shouldn't have asked for help? That means you possibly could have turned it around on him.
     
  11. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Chieftain

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    I think my problem with the whole thing is that he sent a close neighbor(s) of his to help him. He risks making his neighbor much stronger if he can't manage to take anything.
    It's like what if he was bordering Korea and Mongolia, and he can't finish off Korea by himself so he sends Mongolia to go get them. Well if Mongolia succeeds, now he has to deal with a huge authority Mongolian empire on his door step.
     
  12. Bridger

    Bridger Chieftain

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    I mean, won't this make you think twice before taking a city just "because they can't stop me"? Maybe in the future, you'll think "if I take this city, I might be making an enemy for the rest of time." That certainly benefits the AI in any other game once you've learned your lesson. It's very much something a player would do. There's a reason that "spite" is found in many social animals including Humans. If the rest of the social group knows that ****ing with you means you'll use all your energy to punish the transgression, even to your own detriment, it's a great way to deter people from doing bad **** to you.
     
    vyyt and ElliotS like this.
  13. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Chieftain

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    Yeah but this is a game where everyone wants to win. I didn't except the AI to "take things personally". Maybe all these resources the Maya is using to ***k with me is costing him the game. He keeps sending units to my meat grinders. He went piety while Spains Catholicism has pretty much taken over. His technological advantage is slowing down as well.
     
  14. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    You keep saying the AI isn't being rational. And everyone's agreeing with you.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Taking Piety doesn't hurt him, as Piety's bonuses are built around majority religion, not founded religion.

    G
     
  16. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Chieftain

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    Ah.
    Is this the intended design? Sorry for being new.
     
  17. CrazyG

    CrazyG Chieftain

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    This game is to an extent a role playing game. This is why sometimes an AI will act in a certain way, even if it doesn't absolutely maximize their chance to win. They will form long lasting friendships and bitter rivalries. If you become enough of a threat they will turn on you, but it takes time and often another source of tension between the two of you. In general the AI does act pretty rational.

    Just be aware that the AI isn't always honest, if you have friendly relations with a warmonger its a giant red flag that they could be marching an army your way. Also good relations tend to get better over time, same for bad relations. If you have a declaration of friendship with someone, they will likely ignore a territory dispute. But if something goes wrong, like you start arguing over city states or religion, that territory dispute will come back up
     
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  18. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Chieftain

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    Fully rational AI are not interesting in Civ, because the game is not designed for it :
    +The AI cannot communicate in the same way multiplayer human will communicate.
    +There is no "shared victories"
    +It is quite difficult to make rational AIs different from each others.
    +"appearing not winning until winning" is not the strategies we want to encourage.
    => As in vanilla Civ, AI have personalities, some are mostly rational, other aren't. Some are loyal, other aren't.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  19. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Chieftain

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    Oh ok. Thanks for the replies everyone.
    This mod is absolutely amazing. Sometimes before I fall asleep I think about what I could have done better, theorize about how to play different Civs and so on. And then there are all the different map settings, game settings, the combinations are endless. Not to mention the great support with patches and the community.
    :goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:
     
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  20. tu_79

    tu_79 Chieftain

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    Common mistake. You are supposing that he needs more cities or more of anything to win. Wrong. You can win even with only three cities. Just make your neighbours expend some resources fighting among themselves, while you improve your economy even further. Even if you have to pay for it, the outcome might be positive.
    If the other guy gets too strong after that war, same tactics, but against the other one.
     
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