Does the American Civ make you uneasy?

[12agnar0k]

Interesting. See, the United States has had the same constitution for more than 200 years. I'd be interested to see which mature nations represented in the game can say the same?

Most of them, have at some point sustained the same governmental system for 200 years, how about you fan of the US come back when your Country has existed for 2,000 years and only then can you claim to be superior in not changing stuff.

But anyway your wrong, The US was Isolationist for the majority of its years, but is no longer, this is exactly what your claiming against. (Change that is.)

 

[bjbrains]

Ragnarok, you're really missing the point. His point was that the U.S has kept the same government, not that foreign policy hasn't changed. And claiming that he's a "fan of the US" is kind of silly.

 

[ladedadedum]

And in a game called Civilization a weapon of mass destruction is what warrants your inclusion? Does not compute.

On the flip side, considering the usa could raze any other civilization i'd say yeah, that warrants being included. Also, couldn't but notice you're on a .com site using a digital computer...just sayin'.

No you haters countries are supposed to be better somehow, like some aged guru just because it took a while before you guys became irrelevant, and now you ride our culture (which I guess we don't have) and tech while mocking us. That is what doesn't compute.

Egypt and Rome may have helped shaped the known world, but they didn't help shape the whole world.

 

[Schuesseled]

Ragnarok, you're really missing the point. His point was that the U.S has kept the same government, not that foreign policy hasn't changed. And claiming that he's a "fan of the US" is kind of silly.

but what is goverment, if not a collection of ideals and policies?

 

[12agnar0k]

Ragnarok, you're really missing the point. His point was that the U.S has kept the same government, not that foreign policy hasn't changed. And claiming that he's a "fan of the US" is kind of silly.

I was saying he was a US citizen but in another way .

And I wasn't missing his point, I answered that part too.
Besides the US didn't always have the same government, It was previously part of the British Empire. It was not formed with the government it now has, it rebelled into it, since then it had, but in terms of time, it has existed as such for a mere footnote, if the government remains unchanged for another 2,000 years then fair enough.

Also for another point to me, just because you can remain backwards and unchanging for 200 years isn't necessarily a good thing. ^>^.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

For the sake of an argument, let's just say that America only showed up around 1776. And let's further ignore stuff like that there was no "Germany" before 1871, or that the Iroquois' contributions to world culture were, ah, limited. Still, in no historical order:

- Major party in destroying what was left of the Spanish empire, in stopping German aggression (twice), in stopping Japanese aggression, in holding the line until Communism fell apart, in fighting radical Islam.
- Invented religious tolerance as we understand it today (no religious oath for government). Invented the modern constitutional convention.
- Cultural influence in the modern world to the point where accused of "cultural imperialism". Just about everybody wears jeans and baseball caps, drinks coke, listens to rock music or a later variant, and watches U.S. films. Cultural icons have world penetration (from Mickey Mouse to Rambo).
- Landed on the Moon. First and still only to do so.
- Invented the atomic bomb. First and still only one to use it in anger.
- Invented the Internet. GPS. Modern mass production. Desktop computers. Parking meters (which might have been a mistake).
- Invented the pill, triggering the sexual revolution. Brought sex magazines into the mainstream (Playboy).
- Promoted democracy, freedom of speech, and the free market, even to people who didn't know they wanted it.
- Started the oil age, described its end (Peak Oil).
- Invented and promoted modern consumer capitalism.
- Invented the amazingly popular and cool computer game Civilization (with a little help of some Canadian guy).

And so on. Now there are a bunch of things that didn't work out -- for some strange reason, the rest of the world insists on playing soccer instead of the far more interesting American Football. But the influence of the United States has been, for better or worse, unbelievable.

If Civ is supposed to have anything to do with history, you're going to have to include America. You don't have to like that -- obviously some people here don't -- but there you go.

 

[rastak]

To answer the original question in the title of the thread " Does the American Civ make you uneasy?"


Yes, when they get ahead of me in military techs and then start sending threatening messages.

 

[ladedadedum]

Also for another point to me, just because you can remain backwards and unchanging for 200 years isn't necessarily a good thing. ^>^.

We also invented amendments. jk but yeah we have those over here too.

 

[Schuesseled]

The amount things america invented looks miniscule if you show what the rest of the world has done.

Ever heard of the wheel buddy, oh yeah thats right.

- Major party in destroying what was left of the Spanish empire, in stopping German aggression (twice), in stopping Japanese aggression, in holding the line until ...

That my friend is just an example of American aggresion.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

Ever heard of the wheel buddy, oh yeah thats right.

I think at this point the moderators might want to close this thread.

 

[ladedadedum]

That my friend is just an example of human aggresion.

just threw in a lil fix there for ya.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

That my friend is just an example of American aggresion.

That's really not what is being discussed here. It is the influence per se, not if it was good or bad influence.

If aggression as such were a criteria, then you'd have to throw out the English (real imperialism), the Germans (two world wars should count as "aggression" somehow), the Chinese (ask Tibet), the Greeks (Alexander the Great), the Aztecs (a bloody mess), the French (real imperialism, Napoleon), and of course the Romans.

Just come out and say you hate the U.S., even though that has nothing to do with the subject, and then the moderators can close the thread. We all knew that this was going to turn into America-bashing the moment we read the OP.

 

[insaneweasel]

The amount things america invented looks miniscule if you show what the rest of the world has done.

Ever heard of the wheel buddy, oh yeah thats right.

That my friend is just an example of American aggresion.

TEH STUPIDS IT BURRRRNNNNSSSS!!!!

But in response to Empire of Cats: America did do a lot of stuff in the past century that has irrevocably changed our world. However, that was just a century. In the grand scheme of things, 100 years isn't all that much, and the unique aspects of America that you mentioned (consumer capitalism, religious tolerance, etc.) probably could not have occurred 4000 years ago.

 

[Schuesseled]

I never once said that i didn't think America should be in the game. I, unlike the OP, have no problems with the self declared US Of A! being in the game

Oh and i wasn't "america bashing" I just figured that i'd point out that the german, islam, japan agression you pointed out doesn't mean that the states wasn't also being aggressive. War is kinda hard without it.

 

[12agnar0k]

- Invented religious tolerance as we understand it today
If you say so,
- Cultural influence in the modern world
Your speaking of Comercialism here, for the majority of The US's existence it has been isolationist, and strictly not spread culture into the world. Also Comercialism / Corporation is not a US invention, so its not something Unique to them, they do have budding Industry in it, but thats only because they are the worlds biggest economic power.
- Landed on the Moon. First and still only to do so.
Thats practically got nothing to do with anything, The Europeans were the first people to sail the pacific ocean, now-a-days everyone can do it, and every country.
When flying to the moon becomes something practical and useful other countries may well follow suit. Just because you wasted a lot of money to do it isn't something to shout about, no one else really needs to do it now, not unless they want to start colonising space.
- Invented the atomic bomb. First and still only one to use it in anger.
"the United States, with the assistance (collaboration) of physicists, mathematicians, and engineers from the U.S., Britain, Canada and Europe,"
It wasn't the invention of the US alone, and being the only country to use it in warfare is nothing to brag about, if people wanted to use it today many countries could, but It would end the world.
- Invented ....
Many people from many places have invented many revolutionary things, The US can't claim to have done better than any number of other countries achievements.
- Started the oil age, described its end (Peak Oil).
Petroleum, in one form or another, has been used since ancient times,
More than 4000 years ago, according to Herodotus and Diodorus Siculus, asphalt was used in the construction of the walls and towers of Babylon; there were oil pits near Ardericca (near Babylon), and a pitch spring on Zacynthus.
The world's first commercial oil well was drilled in Poland in 1853
Suffice to say, The US did not start anything to do with Oil, other than perhaps the ability to use it a lot, which was taken up globally at the same time.

If Civ is supposed to have anything to do with history, you're going to have to include America.
No you really don't have to, The US has barely had any impact in history, large impact on recent history sure, but history in general nope, The US hasn't done much of anything. If Civ is supposed to be rising the greatest Civilisations from 4000BC to present day, then America need not be one of them.

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[EmpireOfCats]

But in response to Empire of Cats: America did do a lot of stuff in the past century that has irrevocably changed our world. However, that was just a century. In the grand scheme of things, 100 years isn't all that much, and the unique aspects of America that you mentioned (consumer capitalism, religious tolerance, etc.) probably could not have occurred 4000 years ago.

Well, yes. And if the game would end in, say, 1775, you'd be perfectly right. But it goes to, what, 2050? History till 2050 just doesn't work without the U.S. -- again, for better or worse.

And in the "grand scheme of things", the Iroquois, with all due respect, didn't do squat, the Aztecs are mostly an example of how sadistic humans can be and little else, and a lot of people here hadn't even heard of the Songhai until this game came out. So that can't be a criterium.

In the end, and let's not forget this, they have to sell the game. Not including countries like the United States, the U.K. or Germany would be unthinkable because of the number of customers 2K has there. Which makes it even more amazing that they didn't put Spain in.

 

[ladedadedum]

Ok sure right. You guys had tens of thousands of years to invent this crap but just decided not to so usa could feel good about itself. And you're right again, inventing a sharper arrow is every bit as important and noteworthy as traveling to the moon.

In reality you guys would have probably gone into another dark age, or just plain killed yourselves in one of your many world wars. Or maybe died from another huge plague. Who knows with you guys, you all always seem to find some weird way to almost kill yourselves.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

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Again, this is not about being first or being better or good. It is about influence. Let's take your commercial oil well in Poland. Did Poland go on to become the largest oil producer on the planet, spread individual transportation to the masses, use the energy wealth to build what was the largest middle class in history, and dominate the car industry like GM and Ford did for a while?

No. And this is the point. America's influence, in things good and bad, is enormous. This is a game based on history that goes to 2050 (I think), and inside that time frame, there are some countries, civilizations, nations, and cultures that make an enormous impact. One of them is the USA. Try writing history from even 1939 until today and leave the Americans out (I'm sure somebody in Iran is working on that right this moment, but still ...). Go ahead, take out your school history book, from whatever country you are, and cross out everything that involves the US. Does history still make sense? Now try the same thing with the Iroquois. Fact is, you probably won't even notice they're gone.

And people here seriously arguing that the Iroquois should be in the game and the Americans shouldn't?

I think the best argument for the influence and importance of the U.S. historically is the simple fact that people here are getting their panties up in a knot about the whole question. You have to have a pretty big impact to get people so upset.

 

[12agnar0k]

In the end, and let's not forget this, they have to sell the game. Not including countries like the United States, the U.K. or Germany would be unthinkable because of the number of customers 2K has there. Which makes it even more amazing that they didn't put Spain in.

Yes, this is the only reason to include the US, the game isn't about what Civilisation is best from 1800-2000, its about a much bigger scale and the US hasn't done all that much in comparisson. You can detail the things it has done to change the world, but all Civ's have done similar things to change their world at the time, the US is merely a recent Civ to do it, that alone does not merit thier inclusion, but the fact that a lot of people are customers to buy the game simply because they are alive today and not living in Rome in 2000BC is why they will be included.

You have to put things into perspective, if the Romans were around today, would the US still be the worlds economic power, or would it have been the Romans who colonised the new world and ruled with an Iron fist (not the tempremental fist of britain, "oh you've rebelled have you, nevermind then, cup of tea?") still controlling it today and probably burned China & everyone else to ashes by now for a conquest victory. The US may not of ever existed had history not taken place as it had, you have to judge the civ's based on the world they existed in, is the US massively dominant over everyone else to the extent that August Ceaser of the Romans was, or Alexander of the Greeks was. It's really a hard question to quantify, but I refuse to agree with people who say it definitely should be in the game "because we invented the internet, enough said". Does the ancient civlization "9500–6500 BC: Aceramic Neolithic" sometime around then, deserve to be in Civ purely because they invented the first wheel ever to be invented, its comparable to simply inventing the internet. If we included every civ based on discovering something great, then every single civ to exist would be in the game. No, we are going by Civ's that truely were dominant in their world. Does the US dominate the world, no not really.

....

The US has some influence, sure, but my point is that its not as much as the Romans had on their world, is their another 17 Civ's through the history of human kind that have had more influence than the US on their world, almost certainly, and then by these merits alone as this is what you argue, shouldn't they be included in the game in place of the US.

Please stop saying "the Iqourous shouldn't be in the game, the US has had more influence" we are talking about the US here, and their right to be in the game, I can't say I know much about the Iqourous, perhaps they don't deserve to be in the game, but they do deserve their own thread to discuss it, we are not asking to replace the US with the Iqourous. But asking is their no other Civilization that has had more influence on their world than the US.

 

[Schuesseled]

If civ was a realistic game about history, then america couldn't be included because it simply hasn't been around long enough, just like sealand. Fortunately civ is not supposed to be a simulator so it is in the game, however not so fortunate for Sealand and it's noble citizens.

Edit - @ 12ag

If Romans were around today (as such thier Empire never fell) then Americans would be Romans.

"Does the US dominate the world?" Not as much as they think they do.