Does the Christian God capable of unconditional love?

[Little Raven]

Originally posted by Skullbones
What's so funny?

These two sentences.

If you're a good, wholesome, Christian believer then yeah. He loves you unconditionally.

Notice the use of the word if. If is a conditional statement; either the condition is true or false. But unconditional love is just that; without conditions. If God can choose not to love someone because of their actions, then his love is not unconditional.

 

[Becka]

Originally posted by Little Raven

But God is all-powerful. He has dominion over Hell. If he loved you, he would surely save you. And if his love is unconditional, then he loves you regardless of what you may have done. Why would he leave you there?

Whether this is correct or not, I do not know, but from my limited understanding if God forced us to live with Him, would that not be violating our free will?

 

[Packer-Backer]

What it means is that God has a beard, walks around in Heaven, etc. Just because he is everywhere at once in spirit it doesn't mean that he can't walk around like a man in Heaven. But the creator of man in his image, does not mean that the creator is a man. Now about hell: It is not like the devil is following God's rule to torture them, it's just that he is pure evil and evil likes to torture. God and the devil have really no control over who goes where, whoever the God and devil and both racing to the finish line to see who can get to your first. If you believe in no God or devil than then the devil gets a leg up, because you don't have to believe in the devil to go to hell, obviously.

Maybe you have it wrong Moonsinger. God gave you free will and you have to make the decision to go to heaven or hell. It may seem like a simple choice but no, you must accept Jesus as your savior. God expelled Lucifer from heaven and decided to contain him and created hell, but hell wasn't nessicarily evil yet, the devil made it that way. So God pretty much says, if you refuse me and choose to be a friend of the devil then spend an eternity with him, see if you like it. But God loves you but his love cannot make you go to heaven. The rules were all who accept their creator and savior go to heaven, but the devil has hell in his control and all who are evil, which should be a low number but isn't, go to hell. Look at the story this way now. And remember, before Jesus died no one was let in heaven, there was "good" hades and bad" hades but then all who were hellbound were released into hell and all who were heavenbound were released into heaven.

Your mother baked the cake and tells you that you have to go through the door to get it. Next to the kitchen is the closet (hell). Right next to the kitchen door is the closet door, and your uncle (the devil) says he will give you a cupcake (not quite as big of a cake) if you don't walk through the door. You reject the cake and take your uncle's cupcake. But before you eat the cupcake your little brother tells you that you will get a whole cake in the kitchen. You say you don't want to have to go along with all of the kitchen door rules and say your just gonna eat the cupcake. Your little brother goes through the kitchen door and your uncle throughs you in the closet and locks the door. Your mother begins to cry but you are stuck in the closet forever because you refused just to walk through a simple door. Your mother cannot get you out while your little brother is stuffing his face with so much cake that if he was still in the living room he would be 600 lbs. All you had to do was walk through the kitchen door but because you were stubborn and refused to do something so simple, your uncle get's his chance to through you in the closet.

 

[Little Raven]

Originally posted by Becka
Whether this is correct or not, I do not know, but from my limited understanding if God forced us to live with Him, would that not be violating our free will?

And how many people would stay in Hell of their own free will? God is all-powerful and all-knowing, so he would know that one of his subjects, whom he supposedly loves unconditionally, is suffering unimaginable torment. Why would he will allow this to continue? Why does forcing them into Heaven (or anywhere else, presumably God could create a world just for them if they find Heaven distasteful) violate their free will more than casting them down into the flames to burn for all eternity?

 

[floppa21]

Packer Backer. Your cake metaphor is pathetic and stupid. I do hope you see that? On one hand, we have Jesus, God, and salvation. On the other is a kitchen, your mother, and cake. Salvation is not comparable to a damn cake. A KITCHEN is not comparable to Jesus Christ.

So saying your mother tells you where the cake is but can't bring it to you is NOT comparable to God giving us no sign of anything, but making ultimatums.

LITTLE RAVEN, if God loves us, He won't leave us in Hell for eternity or send us there in the first place. He will sit down with us one on one and talk to us and explain why He didn't give us proof or reason to believe in Him while we were here on Earth, and apologize. He will not make any rash judgements on our failure to believe in a story as fantastical as any, He will understand why so many do NOT believe in Him or respect Him, He will understand that we needed more than words from a book. If I am wrong, than I will be in Hell for not believing in Him, and Packer Backer will be right next to me for worshipping graven images.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by floppa21
if God loves us, He won't leave us in Hell for eternity or send us there in the first place. He will sit down with us one on one and talk to us and explain why He didn't give us proof or reason to believe in Him while we were here on Earth, and apologize. He will not make any rash judgements on our failure to believe in a story as fantastical as any, He will understand why so many do NOT believe in Him or respect Him, He will understand that we needed more than words from a book. If I am wrong, than I will be in Hell for not believing in Him, and Packer Backer will be right next to me for worshipping graven images.

I concur! You understand exactly how I feel!

 

[Becka]

Originally posted by Little Raven
And how many people would stay in Hell of their own free will?

That's a very good question. I wonder that myself sometimes.

God is all-powerful and all-knowing, so he would know that one of his subjects, whom he supposedly loves unconditionally, is suffering unimaginable torment.

He is also just. Should he allow unrepentant murderers, theives and rapists there because he loves them? You won't punish your children because you love them?

Why would he will allow this to continue? Why does forcing them into Heaven (or anywhere else, presumably God could create a world just for them if they find Heaven distasteful) violate their free will more than casting them down into the flames to burn for all eternity?

The point is He didn't allow it to continue. Remember that Jesus chap? But why would there exist this "in-between" world? Seems to me that if these people loved God, then they would like and want to spend their eternity with him. And if you didn't care enough about God in your life to live for Him, why in the world would you want to spend an eternity where the main reward is getting to live right with Him?


Now I don't remember if you started this topic or not and I'm too lazy to look back but if these are really genuine questions you have and you're not just trying to get an ego boost out of "beating" a Christian layperson in a theology debate on an internet forum, why don't you have a discussion with a member of the clergy who have made their life about God (well the good ones have anyway). I'd recommend and Orthodox clergy, but that's me.

Originally posted by Packer-Backer
What it means is that God has a beard, walks around in Heaven, etc. Just because he is everywhere at once in spirit it doesn't mean that he can't walk around like a man in Heaven. But the creator of man in his image, does not mean that the creator is a man.

I don't have a beard or the ability to grow facial hair. I wanna be made in God's image too.

 

[Skullbones]

Originally posted by Little Raven
Notice the use of the word if. If is a conditional statement; either the condition is true or false. But unconditional love is just that; without conditions. If God can choose not to love someone because of their actions, then his love is not unconditional.

Ah, ok. Sorry about that. I didn't mean that God loves these people but not these people. I meant that it all depends on your perspective.

Ah, nevermind.

 

[Mark Young]

Originally posted by Skullbones
I'd say it really just depends on what side you're standing on. If you're a good, wholesome, Christian believer then yeah. He loves you unconditionally. If you aren't or if you try to rationalize it or look at it logically, he doesn't.

As much as I would like to say that this statement is wrong, from my observations it seems that certain people are favoured and valued more then others by those in the leadership of the church atleast.

I'm the sort of person in RL, that in Christian circles hasn't 'advanced' in his walk as far as others and I get snobbed by the leadership who were once friendly and polite, now I am lucky if they address me if they want me to do something.
Is this unconditional love? Not bloody likely. What it says to me is that if I dont perform to their expectations then I am not worth the effort to say please and thank you to when they ask me to do something.
The only reason I go to church these days is for answers to my own questions.
But I can see my time there coming to an end fairly soon.

 

[Becka]

Originally posted by floppa21
Packer Backer. Your cake metaphor is pathetic and stupid. I do hope you see that? On one hand, we have Jesus, God, and salvation. On the other is a kitchen, your mother, and cake. Salvation is not comparable to a damn cake. A KITCHEN is not comparable to Jesus Christ.

So saying your mother tells you where the cake is but can't bring it to you is NOT comparable to God giving us no sign of anything, but making ultimatums.

If the starter of this thread uses the love of a mother in comparison to the love of God, does it not make sense that the subsequent replies would make use of the metaphor? If you've got a better one, we'd like to hear it. Oy, what happened to you, floppa?

 

[floppa21]

Sir Eric, just because you leave a church doesn't mean YOUR journey/search has to end. You didn't say it would, and I don't mean to imply I think it would. But your experience right now is quite common. It definitely doesn't help people who are looking for answers in a positive way.

 

[Gothmog]

Heh, quite funny Mescalhead. I was going to write something similar (but most likely not as funny) when I first read Packer-Backer’s post.

In my variant though there are hundreds of women offering you cake, but you know that only your mother really baked a cake and you have no way to find out which door leads to your mother. All of the women sound exactly the same. Then in the end it turns out your mother is right behind you, made pie, and doesn’t care about doors.

Edit: Becka wrote

You won't punish your children because you love them?

I'll punish my children, but I'll forgive them too and I certainly wont make them spend eternity in hell however you define it.

 

[ltcoljt]

God is Holy and cannot abide sin. That is what He is based on my understanding of the scripture.

Now when we begin to discuss these things we have the problem of the contradictorans who, trafficing in logic and reason, seek to pick the scripture apart by focusing on the murkier passages. I do not debate with them because I will lose every time on logic and reason. Faith in God is most definately not logical, nevertheless, I believe.

The scripture teaches that now we see darkly as through a glass, but then with God we will understand all things. Today, I can only depend on faith and I can't answer all of these questions.

And yeah, you can set up all sorts of traps that I can't beat. God's love for the church is unconditional but he still judges them. God's love does not extend to the unsaved in the same sense. The lost are the prodigal son and the Father much desires to bring him home.

We know God in three persons. The Father who cannot abide with sin and knows the unsaved not at all. Jeses, our advocate, who came to die for us, and the Holy Spirit. It is this face of God, the Spirit that seeks for us.

God is both all powerful and all knowing from our POV. But is not so in the sense that he can change his nature. God the Father and sin can't exist in the same place.

This concept of unconditional love is being applied wrongly as if it does or ever could exist between God the Father and the lost. I wish that people would study Biblical precepts more thoroughly before they make statements about the nature of God, whether to attack or defend, it makes no difference.

 

[floppa21]

Originally posted by Becka


If the starter of this thread uses the love of a mother in comparison to the love of God, does it not make sense that the subsequent replies would make use of the metaphor? If you've got a better one, we'd like to hear it. Oy, what happened to you, floppa?

Love is love. Fine.

But Jesus is not a cake. What could be more important than one's salvation? There is no kitchen door to be walked through. The kitchen door is invisible and you have to believe it is there with no proof of it being there.

What I'm trying to say is, the original metaphor was fine. It was concerning love. This cake = Jesus metaphor is ridiculous and not comparable in the least.

 

[Skullbones]

God is all-powerful and all-knowing, so he would know that one of his subjects, whom he supposedly loves unconditionally, is suffering unimaginable torment.

He is also just. Should he allow unrepentant murderers, theives and rapists there because he loves them? You won't punish your children because you love them?

A little different I think. Sending someone who misbehaves for a very short time to hell for eternity is perhaps the equivalent of slowly burning the flesh off the body of your kid for a few hours because they didn't make their bed just right even though you showed them how... once... in riddle form... and in a different language...

 

[ltcoljt]

Yeah, let me state clearly that God created mankind but they are not his children. These silly father-mother to children stories are way off the point.

Again, it is the same blame God game.

"If I am then it's your fault cause you made me." Pout, belittle and defame.

Whoever came up with this notion that the lost are the children of God?

 

[Mariusz]

Originally posted by floppa21
...
The kitchen door is invisible and you have to believe it is there with no proof of it being there.
...

That's what faith is all about. You have to believe without a proof.


I'm a catholic and I've been taught that you don't have to believe in God to go to heaven. Ateists can go to heaven if they follow the rules God gave us. The difference is that most atheists follow these rules just because they want to be decent men and catholics follow them because they want to be decent AND because they know that if they are decent they will go to heaven. Also it's easier for a catholic to follow these rules because he knows them better.
This is of course theory because there are many ateists that are closer to heaven than many catholics.

To use the metaphor with mom, cake and kitchen: There is another way to the kitchen - through the window, but this way is more difficult and it's easier to get lost.

 

[Little Raven]

Originally posted by Becka
He is also just. Should he allow unrepentant murderers, theives and rapists there because he loves them? You won't punish your children because you love them?

I punish my child when he needs it. (though he gets a time-out in his crib, not submerged in fire that never dies) But never for longer than is necessary. God punishes till the end of time and beyond. Doesn't that strike you as a little over the top?

And why would he have to allow rapists into Heaven? He's all powerful. He can simply create a new place, just for them. No need to have demons whipping them. And if they sincerely repent, well, he's all-knowing, so he can instantly grant them access.

And if you didn't care enough about God in your life to live for Him, why in the world would you want to spend an eternity where the main reward is getting to live right with Him?

Maybe you wouldn't. But if the choice is either live with him, or burn for all eternity, don't you think most people would choose the lesser of two evils? And if God really loves everyone unconditionally, he would want to give everyone every opportunity, no matter how bad their actions had been.

Besides, why does it have to be an either-or choice? God is all-powerful. Creating new worlds is easy for him. If a person doesn't want to be in either Heaven or Hell, it should be easy to whip up someplace new for them.

Now I don't remember if you started this topic or not and I'm too lazy to look back but if these are really genuine questions you have and you're not just trying to get an ego boost out of "beating" a Christian layperson in a theology debate on an internet forum, why don't you have a discussion with a member of the clergy who have made their life about God (well the good ones have anyway).

I'm not trying to beat you up, Becka. (and no, I didn't start the topic) These are difficult questions. I'm trying to glean how you answer them, in the hopes of refining my own answers. We each sculpt our own image of God.

 

[floppa21]

Originally posted by Mariusz


That's what faith is all about. You have to believe without a proof.

And YOU roll your eyes at ME? Believing without proof... Stupid. Yep, that's how I'd have to sum it up.

 

[Becka]

Originally posted by Gothmog
Edit: Becka wrote I'll punish my children, but I'll forgive them too and I certainly wont make them spend eternity in hell however you define it.

Whilst you're alive, if you ask forgiveness and repent, you'll be forgiven.

Love is love. Fine.

But Jesus is not a cake. What could be more important than one's salvation? There is no kitchen door to be walked through. The kitchen door is invisible and you have to believe it is there with no proof of it being there.

What I'm trying to say is, the original metaphor was fine. It was concerning love. This cake = Jesus metaphor is ridiculous and not comparable in the least.

There was a reason Jesus spoke in parables. The 'mysteries of God' are better understood that way sometimes. Wouldn't you have complained with equal vitrol of I had told you exactly what you wanted to know but in a languaged you didn't understand? Not that I KNOW exactly what you want to know, but you get the idea. I'm not an oracle, obviously.