floppa21
Crusty Manhole
God KNOWS what I and many others want and need to know. For some reason, He does not give the answer. I have looked for HALF MY LIFE. THat's 14 years. Am I the lazy one here?
Does the Christian God capable of unconditional love?
- Thread starter Moonsinger
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floppa21
Crusty Manhole
No no, my problem is that I should stop looking for answers and just believe. JUST BELIEVE. Someone please roll your eyes at me again. Please.
I concur!
I have always thought of God like an alien scientist from a technological advance civilization. Exactly why I'm no longer going to church to listen to preachers with their silly father-mother-children-sheep-shepherd story no more.Originally posted by Mariusz
That's what faith is all about. You have to believe without a proof.
I'm a catholic and I've been taught that you don't have to believe in God to go to heaven. Ateists can go to heaven if they follow the rules God gave us. The difference is that most atheists follow these rules just because they want to be decent men and catholics follow them because they want to be decent AND because they know that if they are decent they will go to heaven. Also it's easier for a catholic to follow these rules because he knows them better.
This is of course theory because there are many ateists that are closer to heaven than many catholics.
To use the metaphor with mom, cake and kitchen: There is another way to the kitchen - through the window, but this way is more difficult and it's easier to get lost.
It is a false teaching the you can go to heaven by following the rules. This is original sin, the thought that you can be holy, as God is. There is no wiggle room on this one.
Becka
M AS IN MARTINI
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2001
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A important componant of orthodox Christianity is faith. How much faith or trust in God do you have to have if He told you everything there was too know and gave you scientific proof of everything in a way that would satisfy you? Probably very little. Kind of makes it pointless to have free will.
And if you were really looking, I'm surprised you didn't find it, or at least find what you thought you were looking for. What did you need to find to satisfy yourself?
floppa21
Crusty Manhole
The knowledge that it wasn't all wishful thinking. Knowing, not hoping. To me on this topic, 'having faith' is the same as 'hoping'. There is nothing for me to put my faith in without some knowledge or proof.
Skullbones
Captain
That's what my first post was about!
floppa21
Crusty Manhole
Surprise surprise. If God can't lift a finger, but expects me to just 'have faith', than I am better off without Him.
Mariusz
happy to go blind
I rolled my eyes because I thought you knew that there's a difference between believing and knowing. If you had a proof you would KNOW that God exists, without a proof one can only BELIEVE that God exists.
Syterion
Voodoo Economist
If God had unconditional love for all people nobody would go to hell. This whole debate seems pretty simple to me.
But if you say he only loves those who believes in him, that is also crap. He apparently gave us free will and the ability to think on our own, so obviously we are going to question him. He can't punish us for using our abilities that he gave us. He has to give us proof, otherwise there is no reason to have faith.
I would also say that if God couldn't have given us free will, becasue he is omniscient, and since he knows everything, he can predict what will happen, and that means our actions are already decided. But that's another debate.
But if you say he only loves those who believes in him, that is also crap. He apparently gave us free will and the ability to think on our own, so obviously we are going to question him. He can't punish us for using our abilities that he gave us. He has to give us proof, otherwise there is no reason to have faith.
I would also say that if God couldn't have given us free will, becasue he is omniscient, and since he knows everything, he can predict what will happen, and that means our actions are already decided. But that's another debate.
Originally posted by floppa21
Surprise surprise. If God can't lift a finger, but expects me to just 'have faith', than I am better off without Him.
I think that is exactly why they throw the 'eternal hell' at us and try to imply that either we 'have faith' or else we would end up in 'eternal hell'. Of course, now I know that it's just a threat made up by religious people in attempt to keep us under some kind of a lease. I think I have finally found peace and no longer trouble by the threat of the eternal hell.
Another chapter of my life is coming to an end, I guess. I'm really scare, but I think I'm going to be free from now on.
cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
Unconditional love is loving someone no matter how many mistakes they make.
This DOES NOT mean you don't mind their mistakes, it just means that you have infinite patience. They could kill you and as you lie dying, you say, "Please learn from this mistake. I forgive you."
Unconditonal love is not possible, IMO, its just very hard for someone to do.
This DOES NOT mean you don't mind their mistakes, it just means that you have infinite patience. They could kill you and as you lie dying, you say, "Please learn from this mistake. I forgive you."
Unconditonal love is not possible, IMO, its just very hard for someone to do.
cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
If God loves us unconditionally, he would be willing to die for us whether or not we accept him. Just like my mother, she will die for me whether or not I accept/love/resprect her. Why do we have to accept Jesus in order to be saved? Why do we have to accept God in order to be saved? Because any love that have a string/demand /repayment clause is not unconditional love. Therefore, God doesn't express unconditional love toward us at all. If he loves us unconditionally, he wouldn't be forcing us to accept him and to love him.
Think of it this way. There are ONLY two options in life: heaven or hell. These options are ENTIRELY up to you. If you go to hell, it is becuase you ignored every piece of advice and chose to live your life as you wanted, a life of sin.
Now, God loves you unconditionally, but there must be an end to your free chances. Every single moment of your life is a chance to turn it around. If, for 80 years, you ignored God time and time again, do you really deserve to live with him? No. You must suffer the consequences of your actions. Your actions have an affect on your personality, and all your life you've been becoming a worse and worse person. After a certain point (death) you are too far gone.
Let's say your mother (God) baked you a cake (Heaven) and told you that to get to it you must go through the kitchen door (Jesus). All she asks is that you go through the door. You say you want the cake but should be allowed to get it without going through the door, she says the cake is in the kitchen and the only way to it is through the door, even though being God she could easily put the cake right in your hands without any effort; she loves games. You keep asking questions about the door and asking, if it is so great a cake and you love me so much, shouldn't I get the cake whether or not I want to go through the door? Your mother can bring the cake to you, but would rather assert her already obvious superiority for some uknown reason. She is omnipotent, but she just loves to prove to her children how much they need her, even though she could make those she loves so much, completely self sufficient and content. She would rather keep them in a state of infantility. You keep arguing and then you walk away, wondering if you can get on Opera and talk to Dr. Phil about your mother's strange manias.. You can't have any cake because your mother obviously has some sort of mental issues, alas, God works in mysterious ways..
Wrong. Here is how I would put it:
You are in your living room. There are two doors - one to one room (Hell) one to the kitchen (Heaven). God calls you to come into the kitchen, and you get up and start walking. Every step you take either leads you to the kitchen or to the other room. And every step God reminds you whether you're going the right way. You can choose to say, "Oh, I see, I better correct my walking if I want to get the cake." Or you can say, "Well I'm going to keep on going this way because that voice I hear doesn't exist, or this is the right way, or whatever." Every step God reminds you where the cake is, even up until the last step. But once you ignore God that last time and step into the other room, there is no going back.
But God is all-powerful. He has dominion over Hell. If he loved you, he would surely save you. And if his love is unconditional, then he loves you regardless of what you may have done. Why would he leave you there?
The question is, why would God save someone who doesn't want to be saved? If you're in hell you put yourself there, and you knew fully that you were going there. At that point it was your concious decision to go to hell, and God can't override free will now can he?
And how many people would stay in Hell of their own free will? God is all-powerful and all-knowing, so he would know that one of his subjects, whom he supposedly loves unconditionally, is suffering unimaginable torment. Why would he will allow this to continue? Why does forcing them into Heaven (or anywhere else, presumably God could create a world just for them if they find Heaven distasteful) violate their free will more than casting them down into the flames to burn for all eternity?
God doesn't cast you anywhere. He presents you with a choice and you make it. Choices have to have consequences or they are meaningless.
I punish my child when he needs it. (though he gets a time-out in his crib, not submerged in fire that never dies) But never for longer than is necessary. God punishes till the end of time and beyond. Doesn't that strike you as a little over the top?
Don't think of hell as punishment, think of it as a consequences. In fact how hell is painful is really up to your imagination. For example, couldn't hell just be another normal world, but the person's personality has become so corrupt that they can't enjoy any of its pleasures, MAKING it hell?
Hell is a place you choose to go because you've chosen to destroy yourself. Someone who has lived a life of sin without repenting is not the same as a normal person. They've become totally different...
If God had unconditional love for all people nobody would go to hell. This whole debate seems pretty simple to me.
A parent who unconditionally loves their child is willing to accept when they're child won't love them back. You don't force the child to love you; you can't.
Think of it this way. There are ONLY two options in life: heaven or hell. These options are ENTIRELY up to you. If you go to hell, it is becuase you ignored every piece of advice and chose to live your life as you wanted, a life of sin.
Now, God loves you unconditionally, but there must be an end to your free chances. Every single moment of your life is a chance to turn it around. If, for 80 years, you ignored God time and time again, do you really deserve to live with him? No. You must suffer the consequences of your actions. Your actions have an affect on your personality, and all your life you've been becoming a worse and worse person. After a certain point (death) you are too far gone.
Let's say your mother (God) baked you a cake (Heaven) and told you that to get to it you must go through the kitchen door (Jesus). All she asks is that you go through the door. You say you want the cake but should be allowed to get it without going through the door, she says the cake is in the kitchen and the only way to it is through the door, even though being God she could easily put the cake right in your hands without any effort; she loves games. You keep asking questions about the door and asking, if it is so great a cake and you love me so much, shouldn't I get the cake whether or not I want to go through the door? Your mother can bring the cake to you, but would rather assert her already obvious superiority for some uknown reason. She is omnipotent, but she just loves to prove to her children how much they need her, even though she could make those she loves so much, completely self sufficient and content. She would rather keep them in a state of infantility. You keep arguing and then you walk away, wondering if you can get on Opera and talk to Dr. Phil about your mother's strange manias.. You can't have any cake because your mother obviously has some sort of mental issues, alas, God works in mysterious ways..
Wrong. Here is how I would put it:
You are in your living room. There are two doors - one to one room (Hell) one to the kitchen (Heaven). God calls you to come into the kitchen, and you get up and start walking. Every step you take either leads you to the kitchen or to the other room. And every step God reminds you whether you're going the right way. You can choose to say, "Oh, I see, I better correct my walking if I want to get the cake." Or you can say, "Well I'm going to keep on going this way because that voice I hear doesn't exist, or this is the right way, or whatever." Every step God reminds you where the cake is, even up until the last step. But once you ignore God that last time and step into the other room, there is no going back.
But God is all-powerful. He has dominion over Hell. If he loved you, he would surely save you. And if his love is unconditional, then he loves you regardless of what you may have done. Why would he leave you there?
The question is, why would God save someone who doesn't want to be saved? If you're in hell you put yourself there, and you knew fully that you were going there. At that point it was your concious decision to go to hell, and God can't override free will now can he?
And how many people would stay in Hell of their own free will? God is all-powerful and all-knowing, so he would know that one of his subjects, whom he supposedly loves unconditionally, is suffering unimaginable torment. Why would he will allow this to continue? Why does forcing them into Heaven (or anywhere else, presumably God could create a world just for them if they find Heaven distasteful) violate their free will more than casting them down into the flames to burn for all eternity?
God doesn't cast you anywhere. He presents you with a choice and you make it. Choices have to have consequences or they are meaningless.
I punish my child when he needs it. (though he gets a time-out in his crib, not submerged in fire that never dies) But never for longer than is necessary. God punishes till the end of time and beyond. Doesn't that strike you as a little over the top?
Don't think of hell as punishment, think of it as a consequences. In fact how hell is painful is really up to your imagination. For example, couldn't hell just be another normal world, but the person's personality has become so corrupt that they can't enjoy any of its pleasures, MAKING it hell?
Hell is a place you choose to go because you've chosen to destroy yourself. Someone who has lived a life of sin without repenting is not the same as a normal person. They've become totally different...
If God had unconditional love for all people nobody would go to hell. This whole debate seems pretty simple to me.
A parent who unconditionally loves their child is willing to accept when they're child won't love them back. You don't force the child to love you; you can't.
Margim
Footy's back.
My 5 cents - God loves us unconditionally, without reserve. Some of us choose to return that love, which puts us in a relationship with God. The concept of heavan is a place where a human and God, who love each other, get to spend eternity in each other's company.
Hell is the other option - where the human chooses not to love God in return. God does not send them there to spite them. They simply don't want to be with God, so God doesn't make them live with him for eternity, although it breaks his 'heart' when they make that decision.
Hell is the other option - where the human chooses not to love God in return. God does not send them there to spite them. They simply don't want to be with God, so God doesn't make them live with him for eternity, although it breaks his 'heart' when they make that decision.
Does God love you unconditional love? Yes He does BUT HE CAN"T SAVE YOU BY HIS LOVE. this is where people misunderstand love. Moonsinger if you ever had someone on drugs in the family you would know this. NO matter how much parents love their child they can't help them get off drugs with their love alone. in matter of fact . LOVE WILL DRIVE THEM FARTHER AWAY FROM YOU. I know this first hand . You can't help a family member on drugs until they want help . This is exactly the same With God's Love. and since God's love is greater than man's then His love will only drive a sinner who rejects him even farther away Not closer.
Love can't conquer nothing if the love is rejected . In fact rejected love is worst than hate.
P.S God saves By His Grace
Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
I wasn't trying to be right. I just wanted an analogy more congruent to reality. The first one was well off the mark. Yours went right back to the first one. Try again.
bobgote
Trousers
i thought hell was supposed to be the absence of God, least that's how it's like in all the parables. If you feel God isn't with you now, it won't be much different, will it?
(cept for all the demons sticking pitchforks in your butt)
anyway, i'm thinking of going away into the wilderness for some meditative seclusion, anyone care to join me?
just wait a few years becka
(cept for all the demons sticking pitchforks in your butt)
anyway, i'm thinking of going away into the wilderness for some meditative seclusion, anyone care to join me?
heeheeOriginally posted by Becka
I don't have a beard or the ability to grow facial hair.I wanna be made in God's image too.
just wait a few years becka
Life of sin??? Where on earth do you come up with that???
Very good point and well thought example!
I really like your example; however, if what you are saying is true then it also means God can't be all powerful and all knowing. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then he also is the drug dealer who created and sold us the drug in the first place.
