Does the Christian God capable of unconditional love?

Well said, Gothmog!:goodjob:

Even if they didn't misquote Jesus or didn't take his quote out of context "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." by no mean translated into "You are all sinners long before your father's sperm met your mother 's egg and if you don't go through me, you will go to the eternal hell".

Basically, it could easy mean that Jesus is the gate keeper to the king castle and any citizens want to see the king have to go through the gate keeper. It isn't an ultimatum that all citizens must come see the king or they will automatically be sent to the dungeon. IMO, the king would have many much better things to do than to force everyone to see him, and people don't have to meet the king in order to live their life as good citizens in the king's kingdom.
 
I must comend your observation Gothmog. Very insiteful and I have tolerance for your beliefs, I don't accpet it as truth,butI definatly can tolerate and I'm not going to hunt youdown and murder youin the night forwhat you said. I believe one thing you believe another, the beuty is that we can come above that differenceand call ourselves equals. Never do I asa Christain feel above younor do I feel below you. There are two kinds of people,sinners and sinnerswho have been forgiven.
 
Well, thank you Zoke0. I'm glad you are not going to hunt me down and murder me, though I'm not sure that is equivalent to tolerance. Maybe you meant it as humor, but either way it's a mixed message.

I'm also not sure about your characterization of all humanity into two groups. It just seems so black and white to me, is a newborn who only has original sin really equivalent to a rapist/murderer in the eyes of God? Is there no continuum between the two?

Not that I agree with the idea anyway, but I assume you are saying that people who accept Jesus as their savior are 'sinners who have been forgiven'? Then I guess I am a 'sinner who has not been forgiven', and as such should spend eternity separated from a God who never made its intentions clear? Again, I do not see unconditional love in that stance.

I must admit that it seems strange to me that forgiveness relies on such a trivial point, and is in no way connected to your actions on earth (e.g. you accept Jesus in the last hour of your life).

Personally, I have always tried to judge people by their actions and not their words.
 
A little thought experiment:
Let us pretend that we were a benign and loving God.

What kind of world would we create?

Should we really tempt our innocent creatures with forbidden trees? I say no. We wouldn't let your kids eat mind-altering substances, when we already foresee that they can't handle it.

We wouldn't drown 99.9% of all living creatures in a big flood, just because we made a glitch in our design. [ctrl-alt-del] isn't an elegant solution for a superior being.

We wouldn't reveal ourselves to just one tribal clan, but spread our wisdom evenly around the world.

We wouldn't want one of our creatures, called Satan, to cause havoc among our other creatures, the humans.

We also wouldn't want our Son to die for the fact, that the humans ate from that tree, we tempted them with in the first place.


But most important:

We wouldn't even bother to create a world, that is referred to as a vale-of-tears. Instead, we shurely will send all souls straight to the land, where milk and honey runs. Heaven, so to speak.

Entrance unlimited. Joy for free. Commercials: none. ;)
 

But most important:

We wouldn't even bother to create a world, that is referred to as a vale-of-tears. Instead, we shurely will send all souls straight to the land, where milk and honey runs. Heaven, so to speak.

Entrance unlimited. Joy for free. Commercials: none. ;) [/B]

while there is an answer to this but i doubt you want to hear it. God knew man would say what you just said so He got you cover. this is in prophecy. some people misunderstand the purpose of prophecy in the bible. it not just tell us the future but has a message for us today. God will put your idea to the test and has already said it will fail (well atleast in salvation).So when someone face God ,he would have taken away all excuses. God will show there is no other way to save mankind except By Jesus Christ.( I let you study and find where you idea will be put to the test in the Bible)
 
Smidlee, I still don't understand, why God wouldn't send us directly to Heaven.

Can you explain it to me please, in plain english, without quotes?
 
it seems that alot of you think christianity is the only way. so alot of your opions are based off that. there is no simple answer to the question. who really knows if there's a heaven or hell? I don't anyone who's been there and back to talk about it. God's unconditional love comes with one condition, and that's Life. That's God's unconditional love to me. The ability to experience life is all I need to know that I'm loved unconditionally.

you don't need Jesus to live heavenly lives. Just live righteous
 
I'm a Christian, but also a realist and scientist, so here's some stuff to answer all the arguments that seem to keep getting rehashed here.

Argument: We wouldn't even bother to create a world, that is referred to as a vale-of-tears. Instead, we shurely will send all souls straight to the land, where milk and honey runs. Heaven, so to speak. (posted by smalltalk)
Counter: If you're going to bless everyone, where is the point in creating them, and what is the point of having a heaven anyway???
Also, when programming, I have sometimes used CtrlAltDel to start over, so that I don't have old tags and program snippets hanging around.
You seem to be assuming (I have not done it yet) --> (God would never do it.)
Sure, the argument comes apart when you simplify it, eh?

Argument: The generic one that the Bible is inaccurate compared to the world. Example: Creation.
Counter: A great deal of this was most likely written by people who had firsthand experiences of GOD HIMSELF, and wished to convey His immense power to future generations. To do this, they used pictures. For example, the book of Genesis is supposed to show that God created the universe and that He is the driving force behind the universe. NOT that the universe was created in 6 days, which isn't even an argument due to the line "For God a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day."

Argument: If God loves everyone so much why do people go to hell?
Counter: This should not be needed. It's a moronic argument. However, here goes.
Justice. A mother loves her child, but will still first instruct and then punish him\her in some way if the child e.g. breaks something or kicks the dog.

Argument: If God is so all-powerful and whatever, why does he even let there be a Hell?
Counter: Free will. Follow this carefully.
God made the angels to have free will, some rebelled.
God imprisoned them.
The rebels turned their prison into Hell.
God created humans to have free will.
Some humans choose to disobey God.
They are taking the same choice as the rebel angels, i.e. to go to Hell.
God saw that no one was or is perfect.
God sent Jesus to pay for our sins.
This is where it gets tricky. Jesus will pay for our sins, being sentenced to death for our sins (roughly equivalent to paying someone else's fine), and die, but He has already proved that death has no power over him.

Argument: It's intrinsically unfair that only those who get a chance to hear about God will go to Heaven.
Counter: Matthew 25 specifies that "On the last day of judgement, we will be measured according to our actions, not our words".

Argument: The generic one that "If God is good, he would not allow so much evil."
Counter: I've already mentioned free will. Here comes a good quote:
Remember that Satan is the Father of the Lie. He's not going to send hordes of demons running amok in downtown Manhattan killing folk left and right. He's gonna be so subtle he makes Machiavelli look like some clod with a blood-soaked mace.
There are people who willingly choose to follow Satan, most often out of ignorance. They see that a smaller price is required at first, and later cannot break out. I'm skipping the rest of their (non-) rationale here, but to the point:
Satan has servants and influence in our world.


There's another point I'd like to bring up: Loads of people call in Error As Proof Of God's Nonexistance in the bible, to prove that it must have been written by humans.
Insert sound of Homer Simpson saying "NO DUHH!" here.
Of course the Bible was written by humans!!!!!!
I can say it this way: It's a subclause of Human Free Will that God will not interfere directly in the world, e.g. by writing Bibles for us. So stop trying to cast doubt on the main points by indicating mistakes in passages written by people trying to color history to their own advantage.

P.S. I suggest you look for Carl Sagan: The Demon-Haunted World at your local library. It has a very good section on logic, reasoning and baloney detection.
 
If the christian god does exist, i dont think he can love unconditionally if the bible and the church are to be believed, then you either believe in god, or you are damned for eternity.

I see that as meaning that he will only love you if you choose to believe in him.

That isnt unconditional.

reasons im not religious:

1) I dont like the idea that my life has already been decided.

2) The Idea that some huge immensly powerful being that appeared out of knowhere without explanation created us in his image to worship him just doesn't sound right to me.

3) Most of the events in the creation could be explained by science
 
Erik Mesoy
I'm a Christian, but also a realist and scientist,
Now I am a spiritual person, a compulsive dreamer and sometimes an utter fool. (And I'm not j/k here.)
If I had free will, I'd choose to be a bit more realist and no fool at all. But in fact I can't help it.
Also, when programming, I have sometimes used CtrlAltDel to start over, so that I don't have old tags and program snippets hanging around.
That's just because your IDE wasn't programmed by God, but by fallible humans.
Argument: If God loves everyone so much why do people go to hell?
Counter: This should not be needed. It's a moronic argument. However, here goes.
Justice. A mother loves her child, but will still first instruct and then punish him\her in some way if the child e.g. breaks something or kicks the dog.
A moronic argument? Hmm. - Well, as I have already admitted to be a fool, I can go on with some more BS-argumentation, without blowing my cover:

1) If I ever punished my children, then because I must have been upset to the point where I was out of my mind - which sometimes happens as I'm a fallible human. Generally, I would claim that trouble making is just the children's way of saying: "Give me more attention, not just lectures or beatings." Children are very cooperative, if you love 'em truely.

2) More important: Your implication is: I punish my children now, so they won't commit the same "sin" twice, ie. break something again or kick the dog again. Yeah, trying to beat some sense into children? The concept of hell is like revenge.

Punishment is - at best - a means. In Christianity, it's the End.

Punishment is like wanting your children to be Pavlows's Dogs.

Usually, parents want the best for their children. They even want their children to be better off than themselves. Now what does your Godfather do in this regard? Has he yet made us heirs to his powers?
Remember that Satan is the Father of the Lie.
Of course the Bible was written by humans!!!!!!
... So stop trying to cast doubt on the main points by indicating mistakes in passages written by people trying to color history to their own advantage.
So you claim Satan is the father of the bible?
P.S. I suggest you look for Carl Sagan: The Demon-Haunted World at your local library. It has a very good section on logic, reasoning and baloney detection.
To paraphrase Carl Sagan: "if the universe was created just to provide a stage where our souls could be tested, it would be an awful waste of space."
 
Originally posted by Moonsinger
What is unconditional love? That is what I'm attempting to find out.

For example, I knew that my Mom had loved me unconditionally because she is willing to give up her life for me no matter what. Even if I told her that "you are not my mother" (just an example, I love my mother dearly and would never say such thing to her), I'm sure she would love me the same and would sacrifice her life for me no matter what I say and do. IMO, if this is not unconditional love, I don't know what else.

Now, let's talk about Jesus Christ for a moment. The Christian philosophy is that God love us; therefore, he sent Jesus to die for our sins. Well, we are not going to talk about sins or the existance of God in this thread. This thread is really about unconditional love. Here is my question:

If God loves us unconditionally, he would be willing to die for us whether or not we accept him. Just like my mother, she will die for me whether or not I accept/love/resprect her. Why do we have to accept Jesus in order to be saved? Why do we have to accept God in order to be saved? Because any love that have a string/demand /repayment clause is not unconditional love. Therefore, God doesn't express unconditional love toward us at all. If he loves us unconditionally, he wouldn't be forcing us to accept him and to love him. Yes, I said "force" because he isn't giving us much of an option here. Either to accept him or to spend eternity in hell.

Is God capable of unconditional love? What do you think? I expect God's love to be at least equal or greater than the love of my mother toward me. If my mother of fresh and blood is capable of greater love than God, then may be the Christians got it wrong or may be Jesus Christ wasn't really what he said he is.

He gave us his son, without him anyone couldent be saved, we would all be damned, god provides uncondittional love to human raze, however to single humans he wont, or would you like hitler in heaven, ?'?
So you see, he does loves us, however if you are in constant rebelion against him, refuse his teachings, he will "turn his back " on you if you seek him he will seek you, and he even loves what you would call "siners" because he can and will accept them back.

finnally lets use your example, lets say that you rejected your mother, however she came to save your life, if you refuse her help, and die, is it really her fault or yours that you died ? Its the same with the sacrifice jesus made, is up to us to take his hand or slap it away.
And didnt cristh was killed by the ppl he was trying to save??
 
Originally posted by Moonsinger
Well said, Gothmog!:goodjob:

Even if they didn't misquote Jesus or didn't take his quote out of context "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." by no mean translated into "You are all sinners long before your father's sperm met your mother 's egg and if you don't go through me, you will go to the eternal hell".

Basically, it could easy mean that Jesus is the gate keeper to the king castle and any citizens want to see the king have to go through the gate keeper. It isn't an ultimatum that all citizens must come see the king or they will automatically be sent to the dungeon. IMO, the king would have many much better things to do than to force everyone to see him, and people don't have to meet the king in order to live their life as good citizens in the king's kingdom.

Its kinda like that, just that jesus is like the bridge bettween humans and god, not the gatekeeper. I still dont understand this I mean what you are trying to get at, if your dads only requirement to you, for example is to everyday tell him that you love him, and you go and not only omit it but do the oposite, isent your dad in te rigth of punsihment, even society has requirements, dont criminals go to prison??

However the concept of turture dosent go with the image of god, hell dosent exist, when in the bible there are refeferences to something like hades, it means human cmmon sepulture, meaning: being dead, however god promises that he can get you out of that state, but I disgress. God only punish to a fair, just state never more than we deserve.

If for a long time, someone tells you to do something or you will die, isent that better, than that if that person didnt tell you what to do and someday, comes and kills you for something you didnt did, but however, you didnt knew you had to do, if someone tells you what to do to live isent that a show of love to you?' However if you dont do it because even knowing it because you dont feel like it, you cant expect to go for free, you have to expect the punishment. and look even god love us in that way, since if a person dosent get to ever know anything about him, he wont punish him, but he will give him the chance to know him, so he can make a choice.
So what you have is a wrong perspective, you are looking gods requirements, as a prove that he dosent have unconditional love,but look at them as a warning because he loves us, however he dosent make you love him, so in way you are the one turning your back on him not him on you.
 
Originally posted by smalltalk
A little thought experiment:
Let us pretend that we were a benign and loving God.

What kind of world would we create?

1-Should we really tempt our innocent creatures with forbidden trees? I say no. We wouldn't let your kids eat mind-altering substances, when we already foresee that they can't handle it.

2-We wouldn't drown 99.9% of all living creatures in a big flood, just because we made a glitch in our design. [ctrl-alt-del] isn't an elegant solution for a superior being.

3-We wouldn't reveal ourselves to just one tribal clan, but spread our wisdom evenly around the world.

4-We wouldn't want one of our creatures, called Satan, to cause havoc among our other creatures, the humans.

5-We also wouldn't want our Son to die for the fact, that the humans ate from that tree, we tempted them with in the first place.


But most important:

6-We wouldn't even bother to create a world, that is referred to as a vale-of-tears. Instead, we shurely will send all souls straight to the land, where milk and honey runs. Heaven, so to speak.

Entrance unlimited. Joy for free. Commercials: none. ;)

1-if your father tells you you shouldent put your finger in the electrical socket becasue youl get shoked, and will die and thats the only thing you shouldent do, and you do it, is it the sockets fall? is it the fault of the person who put it there? is it your dads fault, who told you out of love and wanting to protect you that shouldent do it?

You would say . "but I would never put something that could harm my son on purpouse" and thats the beauty of it god didnt force them to obey him he told them, hey you got a hell lot of trees and I just dont want you to eat from that,, like when your parents, tell you u shouldent throw a party when they are gone, you could do lots of stuff movies, parties outside, howvere you do it, they didnt told you to tempt you, they just asked you to not do something, its the same, you cant consider that requirement a mean temptation.

2- If your house is infected with termites, for your sons fault, wouldent you exterminate them ( the termites), however you would tell your sons that they should get out of the house on a given date with certain things, like the pets, or something like that, you know the animals in the house, if you tell hem, and tell hem, and only one obeys, again is it your fault?? the same God told Noah to tell other ppl about the flood , they didnt listen, so they died. plus if he wanted to do delete he could have just done it from adam and eves rigth?', however he loves us so much, that in benefit of us the sons of adam and eve he didnt, so that we could get a chance to live our lives, and choose him or not.

3- and he did , but choosed the rigth time, and not BANG! "Im here" like you propouse.

4- And he dosent, he will kill him, again in the time he has choosen, not when you want, or think will or would be the rigth time.

5- and thats were the inconditional love takes in, you said it, you wouldent let your only son die to save a bunch of evildoers, and some of good doers, you wouldent, however he loves us no mater what humanity has done. Wasent him going to save sodoma and gomorra, if lot culd find one 1 good person?? the same with jesus, for some little faithfull persons, he saved all humanity.

6- he did exactly that, however we decided to throw it away for this land.

Dont mean to be rude here, but you show a complete ignorance or missunderstanding of the bible.
 
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