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Does the Fortify defense bonus get added in with the city defense bonus?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Free Enterprise, Oct 8, 2002.

  1. Free Enterprise

    Free Enterprise The return stroke.

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    If a unit is fortifying in a city does it get both the city defense bonus and the fortify defense bonus? In Civilization 2 you did not get the fortify defense bonus if a city had city walls.

    In Civ 3 city defense and city wall defense are pretty much the same thing. So, is it the same as Civ 2 or do they add together. What is the nature of the addition if so.
     
  2. billindenver

    billindenver Chieftain

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  3. Lt. 'Killer' M.

    Lt. 'Killer' M. Chieftain

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    RTFAQ and RTNQT (in my sig you can find links). Ask Qs like this one there.

    QWelcome to CFC, btw :)
     
  4. Catt

    Catt Chieftain

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    In my experience, yes. All defensive bonuses are added together to generate a total "defensive bonus" which is then applied to the base defense of the unit. So, an infantry fortified in a metropolis on a hill across a river would have an aggregated defensive bonus of:

    fortification: 25%
    metropolis: 100%
    hill: 50%
    river: 25%

    Total: 200%

    That particular infantry's "defensive rating" is 30.

    @billindenver: the civ calculators out there are very helpful, but they are really just calculators -- the underlying rules that govern the calculations (i.e., whether the normal fortification defensive bonus is applicable to a unit if it is fortified in a city or metropolis) are independent of the calculator. When we use the calculator, we trust that the creator understood the rules correctly in building its functions. :)

    The "city walls" defensive bonus goes away when the town becomes a city (replaced by the equivalent "city defensive bonus"). If you build walls in towns that will grow into cities, you may have a chance to notice that the "City Walls" improvement disappears from the city's improvements window, but will reappear if the city becomes a town through starvation, settler or wroker builds, bombardment, etc.
     
  5. billindenver

    billindenver Chieftain

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    I believe this calculator takes almost everything into account. It gives you the choice of either walled town OR city, not both. It allows you to pick fortified or not, and takes into account barbarians, difficulty level, Great Wall, etc.

    Personally, I think it's a wonderful tool, which is why I pointed it out. When I started playing the game, I was always puzzled why, for example, my 6/3/3 cavalry wasn't winning almost equally to the rifleman it was attacking (4/6/1). It's not that I didn't realize there were defensive bonuses, but until you start adding them up (fortified, in a city) you don't consider that his defending strength is actually 11.1, and against a veteran unit, you will lose 80% of the time. It also clarifies the value of hit points! Knock that rifleman down to 1 HP, and my cavalry will win 80% of the time!
     
  6. Catt

    Catt Chieftain

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    I also think its a great tool and its a good idea to share it with others.

    My point was that it doesn't answer the question posed of whether the fortification bonus is applicable to a unit in a city. The calculator does calculate as if the bonus applies -- but whether or not the bonus applies is a separate question. Someone could just as easily build a calculator that functioned in a way to offer the fortification bonus, but not include it in any calculations involving a fortified unit in a city -- this would still be an "accurate" calculator in that it does the math correctly, but it got the fundametal game rules wrong and therefore produces the wrong result through the correct math. Or, it could again do the math correctly, but calculate the defensive bonuses as cumulative modifiers to the base defense (multiplying the defense by the first modifier; multiplying the result by the second modifier; multiplying that result by the third modifier, etc.) which I do not believe is the correct formulation. Once again, correct math, incorrect rules and incorrect game result. The calculator is a great tool, but it is built based upon assumptions about how the game rules affect defense bonuses -- it is not necessarily the definitive answer to what those game rules are.
     
  7. Free Enterprise

    Free Enterprise The return stroke.

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    Yes, Catt that is what I meant. I knew of the calculator however I was not certain that it explained the entire picture of how and if the bonuses are applied.
     
  8. warpstorm

    warpstorm Yumbo? Yumbo!

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    All bonuses stack. In PTW, there will be 2 more bonuses a 50% def bonus for Civil Defense and 25% for Radar Towers.
     
  9. Free Enterprise

    Free Enterprise The return stroke.

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    Hmm that is disturbing that even more bonuses will be added in....
     
  10. warpstorm

    warpstorm Yumbo? Yumbo!

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    That's what I think too, but every time I bring it up Speedy insists that the endgame isn't too defensive. I disagree, I thought the end game was too defensive before.

    The way I figure it, an infantry can theoretically have an effective defense of 37.5 and an MI could have as high as 67.5.

    Short of nukes or truly insane massive bombardment, how do you attack that?

    Guess I'll have to use the nukes. ;)
     
  11. Free Enterprise

    Free Enterprise The return stroke.

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    A modern armor could easily have less than a 10% chance against mech infantry.... That is way to defense favoring.

    Hah, even a riflemen could often match a modern armor with enough bonuses..... So much for attacking.
     

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