Does the UK need its Nuclear Deterrent?

brennan

Argumentative Brit
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UK does not need a nuclear deterrent

Nuclear weapons must not be seen to be vital to the secure defence of self-respecting nations



Sir, Recent speeches made by the Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary and the previous Defence Secretary, and the letter from Douglas Hurd, Malcolm Rifkind, David Owen and George Robertson in The Times on June 30, 2008, have placed the issue of a world free of nuclear weapons firmly on the public agenda. But it is difficult to see how the United Kingdom can exert any leadership and influence on this issue if we insist on a costly successor to Trident that would not only preserve our own nuclear-power status well into the second half of this century but might actively encourage others to believe that nuclear weapons were still, somehow, vital to the secure defence of self-respecting nations.

This is a fallacy which can best be illustrated by analysis of the British so-called independent deterrent. This force cannot be seen as independent of the United States in any meaningful sense. It relies on the United States for the provision and regular servicing of the D5 missiles. While this country has, in theory, freedom of action over giving the order to fire, it is unthinkable that, because of the catastrophic consequences for guilty and innocent alike, these weapons would ever be launched, or seriously threatened, without the backing and support of the United States.

Should this country ever become subject to some sort of nuclear blackmail — from a terrorist group for example — it must be asked in what way, and against whom, our nuclear weapons could be used, or even threatened, to deter or punish. Nuclear weapons have shown themselves to be completely useless as a deterrent to the threats and scale of violence we currently, or are likely to, face — particularly international terrorism; and the more you analyse them the more unusable they appear.
The much cited “seat at the top table” no longer has the resonance it once did. Political clout derives much more from economic strength. Even major-player status in the international military scene is more likely to find expression through effective, strategically mobile conventional forces, capable of taking out pinpoint targets, than through the possession of unusable nuclear weapons. Our independent deterrent has become virtually irrelevant except in the context of domestic politics. Rather than perpetuating Trident, the case is much stronger for funding our Armed Forces with what they need to meet the commitments actually laid upon them. In the present economic climate it may well prove impossible to afford both.

Field Marshal Lord Bramall
General Lord Ramsbotham
General Sir Hugh Beach
House of Lords, London SW1
Three Lords, all former Generals, wrote this article in the Times on Friday, highlighting concerns about the viability of the UK's 'independant nuclear deterrant' in the face of the £20 Billion upgrade to Trident that is planned to go ahead in the coming years.

With the end of the Cold War who does it deter? Certainly not terrorists, and we live in times where war between a similar power such as our old foe across the channel could hardly seem more remote.

Is it independent? No, it's designed and built by the USA.

Could the money be better spent elsewhere? Almost certainly - increasing the ability of the services to project power into troubled parts of the world has been a major initiative over the last decade or more and 20bn is a lot of money that could be used to bolster conventional forces, or be spelt otherwise than on defence.

...and unilateral disarmament sends a powerful message to all those countries who aspire to their own nuclear arsenal - many of whom we are trying, quite hypocritically it may seem, to discourage.

Source
 
Of course we don't need it, it's just another example of us sucking up to the big bully on the block, our friends the Americans.

When we can't even afford to equip combat troops with bullet proof vests 20bn is a sick joke. But I guess America needs the cash after screwing up the world economy.
 
Without the independent ability to maintain yourown weapons, you shouldn't invest in them. Period. As to whether they're needed or not, I do not think so, though I wouldn't rule out small-yield tactical weapons.
 
There's no such thing as an independant UK nuclear deterrent - it's so linked in to American systems that we couldn't launch unless they wanted us to, in which case adding our 200 to their thousands isn't really necessary. The whole system exists for purely domestic political reasons. Not exactly 20bn well spent.
 
No, one nuke would not be enough ;)

I'd be toast though since we have a military airbase in merseyside. And Gordon Banks works there! (ex England and Everton goalkeeper).
 
It was never really necessary. It was nothing but a status symbol from the beginning. A country needs nuclear weapons to be considered a great power, and the UK wanted to be seen as a great power.

I couldn't see any likely scenario in which the UK would actually need nuclear weapons. Even if the UK was at war with a major power they wouldn't need them because the USA would probably be involved as well, and would be the one to launch the nukes if it ever came to that.
 
It was never really necessary. It was nothing but a status symbol from the beginning. A country needs nuclear weapons to be considered a great power, and the UK wanted to be seen as a great power.

I couldn't see any likely scenario in which the UK would actually need nuclear weapons. Even if the UK was at war with a major power they wouldn't need them because the USA would probably be involved as well, and would be the one to launch the nukes if it ever came to that.

what if the UK is at war with the US!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!!!!111111
 
Just like when Italy or Austria-Hungry were trying to build Dreadnoughts. Although, during the height of the Cold War, it was nice to know that (just in case) you had a trump card in case the USA decided NOT to get wiped out over West Germany.
 
Just like when Italy or Austria-Hungry were trying to build Dreadnoughts. Although, during the height of the Cold War, it was nice to know that (just in case) you had a trump card in case the USA decided NOT to get wiped out over West Germany.
Bloody unpredictable Yanks.
 
I've changed my mind, I'd Planet Bust the UK

Meh, you changed it from detonating it over the sea for a giant tidal wave - which we all know is American code for "We aimed at London, but we were actually hundreds and hundreds of miles off target".
 
We already negotiated an opt out of that though ;)
 
Yeah, the UK could just shelter under the American nuclear umbrella.
 
While playing as England in Civ 4 on Earth Map 18 civs I'd say that nukes are absolutely needed.
 
1) So long as the French have them, Britain must have them too, that's a matter of principle.
2) France is not so totally naive and stupid to believe that giving up on nukes would actually bring peace to the world.

Europe should develop an ICBM, build about 30 of them, each with 5 x 250 kt warheads, place them in 3 reinforced concrete silos in sparsely inhabited areas and then ask the Americans to take their nukes home.

In my opinion, Europe needs some minimum deterrent. France and Britain can provide the submarine-based nuclear deterrent. Silo-based ICBMs could be developed jointly by all EU countries which choose to participate, the warheads could be supplied from France or Britain. As for the third part of the nuclear triad, the bomber force, I don't think we need it.

Also, European countries should make a small number of smaller tactical nukes, just in case.
 
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