sumthinelse
civ investigator
I have been trying to get war weariness for 50 turns in a pbem game. Democrarcy, I have lost lost lots of units, lost over 50% of my cities, still no WW. Did firaxis disable WW in multiplayer?
Does war weariness exist in mp?
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sumthinelse
civ investigator
I believe the answer is: No WW in pbem games, not even if you declare war as a democracy and lose most of your cities! I don't know about turnless etc. It seems to me that now democracy and republic will be stronger and the religious civ attribute will be worth less (I didn't say worthless) because there is no WW penalty for democracy, switching goverments from democracy in a war situation to communism is not necessarily a good thing.
Well, it does seem like war weariness is something you'd have to turn off (or seriously tone down) in a MP game because of exploitation factor. If there's one thing I have learned from online gaming experience, it's that if there's something cheesy you can do to irritate or harass another player (and not just game-effect harassment), there are people who'll do it just to spite you, and I can see people staying despotism or monarchy forever, constantly in a state of war with someone just to make their civ shut down.
sumthinelse
civ investigator
Yes, I always thought that in single player games the AI was just waiting for me to go into democracy so it could declare war and inflict the "WW Curse" on me. With human players, you can bet that (if WW was in MP) some of them would be just itching to see you switch to democracy so they could torment you, especially if they were already losing.
Another reason they did it this way may be that WW is calculated with respect to turns, and in MP sometimes it's not so clear when a turn ends, for a programming point of view.
Anyway, I think WW as implemented in SP has some problems, and it doesn't bother me to se it disappear.
Another reason they did it this way may be that WW is calculated with respect to turns, and in MP sometimes it's not so clear when a turn ends, for a programming point of view.
Anyway, I think WW as implemented in SP has some problems, and it doesn't bother me to se it disappear.
Is it removed?
I see the balance problem, but it also creates unbalance to remove it.
1. Unlimited war in democracy, sort of messes up the other goverment types.
2. Wonders that have no effect in the game.
So do anyone know if war weariness is removed or not?
I am in a MP game now and to have used 800shields on Universal sufferage and get nothing for it is not fun. At least it should be a note in the manual abouth how they handle it.
I see the balance problem, but it also creates unbalance to remove it.
1. Unlimited war in democracy, sort of messes up the other goverment types.
2. Wonders that have no effect in the game.
So do anyone know if war weariness is removed or not?
I am in a MP game now and to have used 800shields on Universal sufferage and get nothing for it is not fun. At least it should be a note in the manual abouth how they handle it.
sumthinelse
civ investigator
AFAIK there is no official word from Firaxis. I know that I did extreme things (see 1st post in this thread) that I think would always trigger WW in a PBEM game just to force WW, but it never occurred. I am just speculating, but maybe firaxis accidentally disabled it during development, or "temporarily" disabled it and forgot to re-enable it.
Now that you've mentioned it, I don't seemed to be getting much WW too, in my Alliance PBEM game with donsig. I'd been at war for a long time now, but unrest isn't much of an issue... Of course I got 6 luxuries, a lot of police stations and the Suffrage but still... 
Fergei
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I've done a lot of searching on the site (including the War Academy entry on WW and the related thread) and I am not finding a definitive answer to this, although the wider consensus appears to be that it is disabled in multiplayer. Which raises a few questions:
1) does this apply to all multiplayer modes? (e.g. mixture of human and AI in simultaneous moves - where I suspect it is disabled, except for 'reverse war weariness' if someone declares war on you, which is seemingly intact)
2) is this removal hard coded in multiplayer games or is there anything I can do in the editor to change it?
3) if it is irrevocably disabled, is the most sensible adjustment to nerf Republic, Democracy and Feudalism by raising their overall unit maintenance expenditure? (raising cost per unit and/or reducing unit support) to try and very crudely replicate war weariness?
4) do I need to be doing all my testing of AI behaviour in multiplayer mode through the multiplayer client so that I get an accurate picture of their war time behaviour in multiplayer?
1) does this apply to all multiplayer modes? (e.g. mixture of human and AI in simultaneous moves - where I suspect it is disabled, except for 'reverse war weariness' if someone declares war on you, which is seemingly intact)
2) is this removal hard coded in multiplayer games or is there anything I can do in the editor to change it?
3) if it is irrevocably disabled, is the most sensible adjustment to nerf Republic, Democracy and Feudalism by raising their overall unit maintenance expenditure? (raising cost per unit and/or reducing unit support) to try and very crudely replicate war weariness?
4) do I need to be doing all my testing of AI behaviour in multiplayer mode through the multiplayer client so that I get an accurate picture of their war time behaviour in multiplayer?
Fergei
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As an update, despite limitations in debug mode when loaded through the mulitplayer client (e.g. can't view other Civ's progress on tech tree) it seems absolutely certain that the negative aspects of War Weariness are disabled and that this has a fundamental impact on the game. The AI will simply never want to leave Democracy or Republic (at least on higher difficulty settings). You could play for years with default settings and not see a Fascist or Communist government.
It is also a royal pain to try and simulate war weariness through other means (or make Fascist & Communist competitive). Even making cost per unit for Republic & Democracy of 10 will not make the AI shift to Fascism or Communism in Emperor difficulty (possibly because they have so many free units at that difficulty level, that unit cost never really comes into the equation). Obviously a cost of 10 gold per unit makes it pretty ridiculous for the human player too - so I think we can conclude Multiplayer human vs AI is pretty broken on a fairly fundamental level when it comes to governments (including in the MP versions of the Conquests that were packed with the game).
I'll find some kind of ham-fisted solution (be it making Fascism / Communism get the commerce bonus and nerfing them in other ways OR implementing crazy unit support costs for Republic & Democracy, reducing free units for the AI and increasing their difficulty in other ways to compensate). Such a shame that War Weariness wasn't just made toggle-able instead of removing it completely from multiplayer, but there is no use crying over milk that was spilt 20 years ago!
It is also a royal pain to try and simulate war weariness through other means (or make Fascist & Communist competitive). Even making cost per unit for Republic & Democracy of 10 will not make the AI shift to Fascism or Communism in Emperor difficulty (possibly because they have so many free units at that difficulty level, that unit cost never really comes into the equation). Obviously a cost of 10 gold per unit makes it pretty ridiculous for the human player too - so I think we can conclude Multiplayer human vs AI is pretty broken on a fairly fundamental level when it comes to governments (including in the MP versions of the Conquests that were packed with the game).
I'll find some kind of ham-fisted solution (be it making Fascism / Communism get the commerce bonus and nerfing them in other ways OR implementing crazy unit support costs for Republic & Democracy, reducing free units for the AI and increasing their difficulty in other ways to compensate). Such a shame that War Weariness wasn't just made toggle-able instead of removing it completely from multiplayer, but there is no use crying over milk that was spilt 20 years ago!
I haven't played any online-multiplayer, but I've played dozens of PBEM, and in my experience, WW is not "disabled", it is simply completely buggy...: it looks like the WW points are not attributed to the civ that is suffering them, but to the one that is next in turn-order. One very extreme example of this we have experienced in the "Inter-site Democracy Game" of 2010-11: two teams from "civfanatics.com" and two teams from the German site "civforum.de" were slugging it out. The team at position 4 in the play roster was the "Eagles". They got a pretty good start and at one point were conducting a war against team "Deutsche Küche", which was of course higher in the roster, don't remember exactly which spot, but it probably doesn't matter. Both teams were in Republic. The war was going very well for the Eagles, winning battles left and right and taking several Küche cities -- but the Küche did not experience any WW at all, while the Eagles very quickly went from WW level 0 to 1 to 2 to 3 and were completely paralyzed... They basically had to run 100% luxury slider and then were defeated by an alliance between Küche and Knightsbrotherhood (who joined the battle on the Küche's side).
With all that damage, that the Eagles inflicted on the Küche, the Küche's WW should have gone through the roof, but apparently the game accidentally added these WW points to the Eagle's counter instead...
With all that damage, that the Eagles inflicted on the Küche, the Küche's WW should have gone through the roof, but apparently the game accidentally added these WW points to the Eagle's counter instead...
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Fergei
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I haven't played any online-multiplayer, but I've played dozens of PBEM, and in my experience, WW is not "disabled", it is simply completely buggy...: it looks like the WW points are not attributed to the civ that is suffering them, but to the one that is next in turn-order. One very extreme example of this we have experienced in the "Inter-site Democracy Game" of 2010-11: two teams from "civfanatics.com" and two teams from the German site "civforum.de" were slugging it out. The team at position 4 in the play roster was the "Eagles". They got a pretty good start and at one point were conducting a war against team "Deutsche Küche", which was of course higher in the roster, don't remember exactly which spot, but it probably doesn't matter. Both teams were in Republic. The war was going very well for the Eagles, winning battles left and right and taking several Küche cities -- but the Küche did not experience any WW at all, while the Eagles very quickly went from WW level 0 to 1 to 2 to 3 and were completely paralyzed... They basically had to run 100% luxury slider and then were defeated by an alliance between Küche and Knightsbrotherhood (who joined the battle on the Küche's side).
With all that damage, that the Eagles inflicted on the Küche, the Küche's WW should have gone through the roof, but apparently the game accidentally added these WW points to the Eagle's counter instead...
You could deploy some seriously advanced tactics with that knowledge.
Having done more testing, the AI will potentially select Facism or Communism in difficulty levels where their free unit support per city is set at 2, rather than 3 (which it is in Emperor) - sometimes even without any tweaking of the government unit costs. To very simplistically replicate war weariness I added 1 gold cost per excess unit for low war weariness govts and 2 gold cost per excess unit for high war weariness govts. It doesn't seem to break the AI but does seem to slow down their tech development (although I may be imagining that).
Happy enough with a workable solution as it was really spoiling my enjoyment. But now I have no idea of my true difficulty level. Emperor with no war weariness is likely far less challenging than Emperor with war weariness - so I think I developed an inflated opinion of my prowess!
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