Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by reddishrecue, Dec 21, 2011.
Which of these axemen would you rather use better? Dog Soldier, Phalanx or Vulture?
Extra str goes a long way, less str loses a long way. I'd rather have the holkan than the dog if I really really need a resourcless early unit.
Phlanx is pretty decent all around though.
I'll go with the Vulture. Regular axes are slightly better against axes, but that extra strength really helps against city defending archers.
Dog Soldiers are fine if you're only going up against melee units, but chariots eat them alive, and they don't fare very well against city defending archers. I suppose the resourceless thing can sometimes allow a dog soldier rush where a copper requiring axe rush might not work, but 95% of the time I'd rather have the regular axemen.
The Phalanx doesn't really do much for me. I suppose you don't have to build spearmen that way, but meh.
Dog. Guaranteed anti-melee and anti-barb are both godsends in MP and SP respectively. It doesn't allow for spectacular games, but it prevents insta-loss.
Dog has my vote. Best for higher levels.
I voted Vulture for the reasons you give. Vulture vs. Axes will go to whichever has the defensive bonuses. They're a better rush unit which is what I usually use Axes for. The higher base strength helps against non-melee units and gives a better chance of survival against Chariots if they're on good ground.
Dogs can help at very high levels for barb protection. I still prefer Vultures and Dogs would be better with any leader other than Sitting Bull (or Mansa). Dogs aren't quite as good if the Civ also has super-archers.
Phalanx is a decent UU. He spares you from building a couple of spears but the nice thing is you don't have to worry about Chariots in the very early game.
Vultures and Dogs are both the obvious bests, but I tend to find myself using Sumeria more often. Prot/Phil is just a weird combo.
Dogs - best for SB's style... turtle.
Vulture - best of all the Axe UUs for axe rush, if you're planning one. But overall great defenders of the ancient age too, coupled with PRO archers. That is, assuming you have metal
Phalanx - meh. Better for harrassing Persians or Egyptians maybe, but otherwise no better than a regular axe since barbs don't spawn chariots.
This poll really doesn't have an answere, because it's taking things in a vaccume that is impossible. If you're talking about a Dog, that means you are Sitting Bull which changes a whole lot of even the early game, which in fact even changes the UU benefits and other factors.
I may be a bit biased here because I am a huge fan of Native Americans since I did a LOT of always-war over the last few years. There's quite a few 'tricks' I still use with that leader&UU (that were not nerfed). But if I played as many games as Perc for example, I may have discovered some others.
This depends on difficulty level, but I'll go with the dog soldier. It's a good resourceless defender at high levels, and it's good for an early rush at very low levels.
If you're Sitting Bull, build a totem pole and use archers to defend.
Takes longer to reach that then simply building a dog. Dog has some offensive uses too. Also while archers struggle a bit vs swords dog soldiers do not.
Vulture. You're doing something wrong if you have no spears to impale chariots, and it's nice to be able to kill a catapult. The dog might be better for its peak, but it's obsolete rapidly; the vulture kills softened up muskets, a very respectable stack unit for a very long time.
Dog soldiers kill softened muskets too.
The problem with the vulture is that someone can use a road to stack-attack you with a handful of axes and get winning odds on every single one of them. Vulture is essentially obsolete at the precise moment cata are around, because after that it drops the majority of its advantages over standard axes.
Phalanx, it's a nice, well rounded unit.
On emperor and above where barbs are a genuine problem , dogs really do shine . If I spawn near stone or marble I'm always glad to have them cause I KNOW I can build an early wonder , and whatsmore most of the early wonders do very nicely with PHI or totem poles.
Dogs don't have to be boring under these circumstances . A totem pole in every city , an early great spy , early engineer via oracle (totom pole backed crossbows?), early caste or representation .Hell , even TOA can be justified. All possible with Sitting Bull and heaps of fun.
Like Obs pointed out, Native America are survival specialists ~~
Bronze Working is always good early, giving barb defenders without hoping for copper poping up.
Protective allows easy defending against Monty & Co., they couldn't take well guarded SB hill cities with 20 units. Last but not least: with PHI it's possible to catch up in techs quickly.
Doggies fit in nice overall, Barb troubles can ruin your day early (on Deity).
But that requires spending beakers on hunting and archery early on which may not be a good idea.
You have the ability to skimp on these techs and be 99% safe if you're only engaging barbs. Bronze Working, on the other hand, is a very useful tech in most games.
Plus unlike archers, they can come out of the city to beat down barb swords/axes that try to pillage.
Interesting: One with little value over base, two that are potential liabilities.
I'm going with the Vulture. In the case of Axeman units, generalists are objectively more powerful than specialists... and they match my typical requirements better too.
I went with the Vulture because it's brilliant for rushing; the other two units are still very, very good. Phalanx has no guaranteed counter, which IMO is a pretty good ability.
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