Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by reddishrecue, Dec 21, 2011.
Dogs really shine in certain situations, but generally the Vulture is superior.
Dogs are good in large maps in the early game for those situations when you have no copper. I wouldn't try to throw them into a rush against archer cities though. For that I'd want the Vultures.
Why no love love for the Phalanx?
Phalanx bonus can simply be accomplished by bringing along a Spear or too. Now if the bonus included attack, he might be considered a bit better. Otherwise, it just seems a straight up axe to me.
The phalanx is too specialized. It is only of use if your enemy builds chariots.
If Greece had not started with hunting (and something else useful instead), then it might have been better since we wouldn't have to drop beakers in hunting. So right now, we save on a spear or two...
Dog Soldier > Vulture > Phalanx
Dog Soldier, guaranteed anti-barb unit @ bronze working, guaranteed catapult mop up unit (archers get picked apart by swordsman/axeman) axeman rush is no longer an option though (at higher levels)
Vulture is only really good if you wish to axe rush, but then you still need copper near your capitol (and a viable rush target nearby).
Phalanx requires copper which means you can build spearman to defend against potential chariots, its a minor upgrade to the normal axeman which doesn't make it bad, but it has little extra value.
IMHO Phalanxes are not bad with Alexander. He can get combat 1 + shock Phalanxes out of a barracks and there is nothing his non-aggresive, non-Sitting Bull, non Egyptian neighbours can do about them.
I would say, that Dog Soldiers are situationally bad (early rush), otherwise great.
Alex`s Phalanxes most of the time ensure field superiority, Pericles`s are only situationally good.
Vultures are situationally great (early rush for city), otherwise meh (they die to regular axes and chariots in the open).
I like Phalanxes as well. They don't really have a counter when they're built. Definitely better for Alex.
Vultures are slightly behind axes and chariots in the open but they can survive Chariots if they're on good terrain better than Axes.
Dogs would be better with some other leader than Sitting Bull. They're probably even better with unrestricted leaders.
Frederick of the Native Americans would be nice. Or Churchill, though for different reasons.
Dog Soldier, because if I have them, it means I won't have Sitting Bull asking me for techs each turn.
Vultures also have a handy side use being their ability to easily grab barb cities . It's not a massive benefit , but being creative and having Zigs you can easily grab a few very cheaply with a little force of 4 or 5 CR Vultures and make the cities functional quickly.
True enough. Though skipping spearman means more Phalanxes, which are better for everything else. Streamlining like that is most felt in early game when hammers/units are scarce and stacks aren’t as diverse. In medieval times, it’s nothing to add a pike or two. In ancient times, having a stack of 6 axes instead of 5 + 1 spear can really make a difference vs. an invading force. You don’t have to guess what to build. So it seems efficient for defense, which I like.
But yeah it’s just so annoying Greeks start with hunting though.. AND the bonus really should apply against horse archers too, IMO. That’d be more historically accurate certainly, and it’d make the unit more competitive.
For Vultures, as I’ve seen others say, seems like the way to cover their odd weakness to axes is to play Sumeria with an AGG or CHA leader and give them Shock.
Quick check: A Chariot gets ~25% odds to kill a Phalanx, and a Phalanx gets ~75% odds to kill a Chariot, assuming they're equal in terms of health/promos. A Spear gets >99% odds to kill a Chariot, and <1% chance to get killed by a Chariot under the same conditions. Honestly, I'd take along a Spear if I could. Phalanxes just don't perform convincingly enough against Chariots for my tastes, let stand Horse Archers, and if you start with Hunting anyway might as well use it to build a Spear.
Yep, Chariots can and will still kill Phalanx. Not that it would have been great either, but they probably should have left it as a spear type unit from older versions. I think it had 5 strength..not sure if any other bonus outside the normal mounted, but shock promo would be nice.
Yeah definitely bring a spear or two if you’re invading, since you want your Axes preserved for offense, regardless of win odds. And the certainty. But in defending an early DoW, a drop in % from 99 to 75 could be seen as a reasonable or favorable tradeoff for a unit in Spearman which has a far lower % against Axes, and somewhat lower % against archers & Swords due to weaker base strength.
Again, I’m thinking of small stacks early on. I’ve found every unit must count. And especially when the AI send multiple parties. For example, you may have enough for their early SoD, but then say a Melee/Chariot combo comes from another area (common): I’d much rather have 2 Phalanxes than 1 Axe & 1 Spear because when you attack the defenders get priority, and your Spear will lose to their Melee. Otherwise you’re hoping to bait them* before they pillage you, or get to a thinly-protected city.
*baiting being less doable on K-Mod
Vanilla Phalanxes were 5 Spears that got +25% hill defence in addition to the usual +100% versus mounted. Much better than a unit that gets borderline obsoleted by one of your starting techs, IMO.
We were comparing Phalanxes to Spears though.
Not a great UU, but it's nice if you can send reinforcements or kill stray units (on an Axe rush) without always worrying about spear protection against chariots.
On hills or forests they are not really attackable for chariots, while regular Axes would still be at danger, so you can send some out without worries.
Which can help on deity, stacks only protected by Spears is an optimal situation and not always going that smooth
Vultures are my brother's favorite UU by far. I personally do not like axe unique units because if you cannot find the copper you need close to you then you will never unlock the full potential of the unit and Iron Working is pretty expensive. The resources you need for later unique units you can take by force in time to use the full potential of the unit. Also I like UU that can be drafted, so Japan, Vikings, England, France, Ethiopia and the most beloved Ottomans.
How would it be more accurate? Horse Archers don't attack a spear formation head on, they shoot and harass them, being able to retreat if the enemy draws too close.
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