Domesticated Megafauna mini alt history development thread

[Thunderbrd]

Hmm... every time I mention the scientist unlocking punk techs it seems to be ignored so I'm just curious what the opinions are on that matter. Is it apathy or are you guys against the idea? Because recently we've discovered how it could be done...

 

[LeftBower]

This is why my suggestion is to unlock these techs and their resulting 'gifts' via the use of Great Scientists only. Thus more than one civ could unlock the techs or none could, depending on the situation. Additionally, its my opinion that the Great Scientist is one of the lesser GPs at the moment and this solution could bring him back into contention as something highly desirable.

For what it's worth, I like it. Especially for the Leonardo style techs. Make it clear that the tech is great scientist only, though. We don't want people thinking "I'll get that later." or anything. Additionally, it means a civ could trade it or keep their monopoly on the strange and estoric knowledge for a time.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Hmm... every time I mention the scientist unlocking punk techs it seems to be ignored so I'm just curious what the opinions are on that matter. Is it apathy or are you guys against the idea? Because recently we've discovered how it could be done...

Well getting a scientist in the prehistoric era I think would be rare. But I could see the later punks possibly getting that. Though it should not be required.

 

[LeftBower]

Well getting a scientist in the prehistoric era I think would be rare. But I could see the later punks possibly getting that. Though it should not be required.

If there were a few ways to get it but none of them were research it normally (great scientist, special event, etc.) and once someone got it, it could be traded/stolen of course; this would keep the -punk techs as an occasional alternate timeline, and not a thing that happens most games. Because as much as I love these alt timeline units, they should be that: alternatives. Something that requires some special attention or luck to get to and not seen at least as often as they are seen.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well, I was thinking about the objection about scientists not being achieved early enough for some of the earlier punks BUT we could alternatively use Engineers in those cases perhaps. Or we could make it a Scientist OR Engineer prereq.

The way it'd work would be to make a national wonder building that can only be built by the proper type(s) of GPs that serves as the prereq for the alternative timeline tech (according to recent discussion we've discovered we have the ability to make a building's possession a prereq to research a tech). Remove the 'culture' (which seems a bit out of place anyhow) prereq on the punk buildings and units and make the tech the prereq alone.

The AI should see those techs as extremely expensive and perhaps we could talk to Koshling to see if there's a way to make them even moreso to compensate for the special mechanism by which they must be earned. But this is not to say they CAN'T be traded, just for a hell of a price.

The unlocking special building should be obsoleted at some point so that there's only ever one alternative timeline tech type currently viable to unlock.

This way its tough to get them, really tough, particularly if you're trying to grab for religions. But this becomes an alternative strategy to that approach. (Another 'interesting decision') And already they represent quite an 'edge' over the competition - an 'almost' out-teching state can be achieved at comparable tech progress to a competitor this way. But it also makes it so not ONLY one nation can capitalize on the technology, which never seemed quite logical to me to have it ultimately limited to 1 nation being able to use these things.

And again, gives a bit more cause to care to get Scientists and/or Engineers. This helps a lot to balance a Divine Prophets game in particular.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Megafauna Domestication has many types of atl-timeline wonders. One civ could get Mammoths while other could get Rhinos or Bears. So it makes a bit more sense for them all to be under one tech.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I wasn't really intending to include those in this proposed method. Though I'd like to see SOME way for those to be accessed by more than one civ, GPs don't seem like they could be an answer unless we created some more GP types, some of which get used earlier in the game. No doing that until the specialist limit is breached. So I'm not sure how we could open those up to more civs unfortunately.

However, perhaps we could consider that some of the prereqs for those are already pretty intense to a point that very few civs would ever unlock them anyhow... and turn the foundational buildings for those that are currently WORLD wonders into national ones, perhaps even increasing the prereq requirements somehow to make them a bit more difficult to obtain without actively trying to.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am all for a Great Hunter. Gets points from combat with wild animals. Perhaps change the GG to be GG/GH like the other bar is for all the other GPs except chance of a GH goes down over time while chance of a GG goes up.

Great Hunter

Settle as a Great Hunter specialist ( +1 exp for land recon units, +2 for all hunter line units)

Build

any of the current mega fauna trainers if have tech and other requirements in the city.

Hunting Lifestyle I gives free "Hunting Tradition" in all cities.

Hunting Lifestyle II gives free "Hunting Lodge" in all cities.​

 

[Thunderbrd]

Oh Hell yes! Great Idea DH!

One suggested tweak: +2 exp for animal (including canine and feline) units too, and I think that the recon units should get the full benefit. And why shouldn't the naval recon units gain the same too?

I could take a look at the dll side of the process but I'd need help with tweaking the bar display, unit creation, settled specialist creation and I think you could pull off the missions for the unit right?

So for the project, I could build in the tracking of the different point type and the randomizing of the GG/GH result. Koshling might be needed for the AI though it MAY be able to use the AI of the normal GG.

However, irt the AI... Should this type of unit be given some combat stats for an alternative use of going out and actually hunting? He could be the true master hunter in the field with an ability to either always kill (and bring in as much as a slaughter in the city would or more) OR always capture. That could be based on his first promotion. It should be easy to make a tag for promos that states you can't take a promotion if another specified promo has already been taken so once he chooses between the two paths he can't take the other. (Or he could even have a starting mission available to immediately select one or the other promotion without actually having to even 'earn' the promotion.)

Just some thoughts. Would you guys be willing to assist here?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

And why shouldn't the naval recon units gain the same too?

I was sort of thinking of the Great Admiral and Great Fisher...

I was also thinking that the Great Hunter/Fisher (as another building) could create a unit of a plant or animal resource in the vicinity of their city every x turns which could then place that resource on the map.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I was sort of thinking of the Great Admiral and Great Fisher...

I was also thinking that the Great Hunter/Fisher (as another building) could create a unit of a plant or animal resource in the vicinity of their city every x turns which could then place that resource on the map.

After my last comment I was thinking further and came up with some thoughts along those lines too.

However, you cracked into a few discussions there. Here's my suggestions on those:

I'd think a Great Admiral would in fact operate on the GG scale as well as the Hunter and General. But the Hunter would be kinda in-between. Obviously we'd be making the General ineffective at adding XP for recon, hunter and animal units and leaving those bonus xp in the domain of the Great Hunter. But equally, Naval Combat units as opposed to Naval Recon units would be in the domain of the Admiral while the Hunter would also influence the Naval Recon.


And as for the fisher... I've been wanting to make all improvements add GP pts when worked (a 4th yield if you will) so that if all your citizens are out working the fields or the mines or the fish nets, you're more likely to pull up a great farmer, great prospector, or great fisher - with the fisher being much like your suggestion there. (Even Merchant pts from villages would be derived.)

That's a fairly major project I've had in mind for a long time but I haven't taken the time to figure out how to get the GP pt off of a WORKED improvement only yet. And along these lines I also think we should have specialist citizens to support these values like Specialist Gardner etc... and that requires we get past our specialist limits in the city.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I actually want to get rid of the Great Farmer (and Fisher), I have plans..... But back on topic.

I reckon that animal and barbarian combat Great People points should be changed so that you get diminishing returns for the GG (or GA) from animal and barbarians. That way you get almost none in the Classical eras onwards from fighting animals or barbarians. Something like:-

Points needed for a new GG/GA/GH scale with the number you have had as now happens. The "Barbarian Generals" option is removed.

Land animal combat:-

If you have not yet got a GG then all combat points from land animals and land barbarians count towards the GG.

If you already have had one GG then

only half (rounded down) of combat with animals counts towards a GG while the rest counts towards a GH.
Barbarian combat as before.​

If you have had two GGs then

no animal combat points go towards the GG all go to a GH.
Barbarian combat points still go to GG but only 75%​

If you had three GGs

no animal combat points go towards the GG all go to a GH.
Barbarian combat points still go to GG but only 55%​

If you had four GGs

no animal combat points go towards the GG all go to a GH.
Barbarian combat points still go to GG but only 25%​

If you had five or more GGs

no animal combat points go towards the GG all go to a GH.
Barbarian combat points are lost​

Similarly for sea combat as far as Great Admirals are concerned.

In my current games I a getting 11 or more GGs from animal/barbarian combat which just seems wrong.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I was sort of thinking of the Great Admiral and Great Fisher...

I was also thinking that the Great Hunter/Fisher (as another building) could create a unit of a plant or animal resource in the vicinity of their city every x turns which could then place that resource on the map.

A Great Fisherman is a good idea.

 

[Yudishtira]

What about a Great Explorer? In game currently they're all merchants, but irl they certainly weren't (Magellan, Cook, Tasman, etc, etc,.)

 

[Hydromancerx]

What about a Great Explorer? In game currently they're all merchants, but irl they certainly weren't (Magellan, Cook, Tasman, etc, etc,.)

Or a Great Navigator.

 

[Thunderbrd]

hmm... I'm not in favor of greatly reducing the amount of GGs we're getting. I'm thinking its good for the game - makes it more fun to have more xp to work with out the gate and with more for them to do and become it makes the decision there not as critical to stress over... one can be spared from their primary task of being planted in the city and adding xp to units to come. But we may have a few too many being given out in the early stages at the moment.

However, I'm thinking that if we simply make the GH come through on a whole NEW achievement bar and not have it conflict with the GG bar at all except that xp earned from fights with animals go towards the GH bar and all else goes towards the GG bar, then I think we'd find a little better balance with how many GGs are being earned (particularly if the earning of one or the other still expands the necessary cost in earned xp to achieve either one.


On the 'other' topic... what's your alternative plan to the Great Farmer and why do you hate this cool unit so much?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

On the 'other' topic... what's your alternative plan to the Great Farmer and why do you hate this cool unit so much?

It is just badly done and replaces a whole slew of interesting stuff we could do but don't because we have the GF.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So what's your proposed solution then?

 

[LeftBower]

hmm... I'm not in favor of greatly reducing the amount of GGs we're getting. I'm thinking its good for the game - makes it more fun to have more xp to work with out the gate and with more for them to do and become it makes the decision there not as critical to stress over... one can be spared from their primary task of being planted in the city and adding xp to units to come. But we may have a few too many being given out in the early stages at the moment.

However, I'm thinking that if we simply make the GH come through on a whole NEW achievement bar and not have it conflict with the GG bar at all except that xp earned from fights with animals go towards the GH bar and all else goes towards the GG bar, then I think we'd find a little better balance with how many GGs are being earned (particularly if the earning of one or the other still expands the necessary cost in earned xp to achieve either one.

This I like. Simple, scales out with it's own usage, all around good. If we were going to do a great admiral, it could do the same, but with sea units.

As for the great farmer - how many farmers in their capacity as a farmer have achieved noteworthy things? It's not the same as a great merchant, great scientist or great engineer. I'm not a fan of the great farmer idea as a whole. I'd hate to get a farmer instead of a great merchant.

As for great explorers, I'm undecided. How would one earn one? Through explorer specialists? By exploring so many tiles?

 

[Thunderbrd]

As for the great farmer - how many farmers in their capacity as a farmer have achieved noteworthy things? It's not the same as a great merchant, great scientist or great engineer. I'm not a fan of the great farmer idea as a whole. I'd hate to get a farmer instead of a great merchant.

I guess some of the things I learned in American history about the struggles farmers had here to figure out what crops to grow where and the few truly innovational and standout farmers that made major breakthroughs in determining what crops are best in some of the more challenging American soils (Potatoes in Idaho for example), and in more ancient history, the invention of corn itself - a mesoamerican achievement, gives me causes to feel that a Great Farmer would be useful still, particularly moreso if it were not just a 'buildable' unit but a real GP. (I think this is one thing ls612 and I really agreed on actually...)

If we were going to do a great admiral, it could do the same, but with sea units.

I was thinking the same thing.

As for great explorers, I'm undecided. How would one earn one? Through explorer specialists? By exploring so many tiles?

Maybe it could be a 'form' a Great Hunter could take? We have GGs becoming G'C's (Great Commanders) with a mission use... perhaps the same could be done to make a Great Hunter become a Great Explorer as one of his options? And perhaps the Great Hunter could become a Legendary Hunter alternatively, which would make him an actual hunting unit. These transitions would be helpful for making it so we wouldn't need too much AI work actually...