Domination celts

[Remito]

Hi

Playing with 5.03 I've been trying several games of Domination Celts on Emperor, but I feel it's stalling quite quickly.
Their strong early UU and incentive to go to wars to found quickly usually make it easy to conquer 2 close neighbours, but I find that after that they don't have many warmongering advantages, and at medieval I can already be 6-10 techs behind which makes it tough to sustain wars.
So I guess I must do sthg wrong.
I've tried going a border blob strategy (Epona + Authority + Tradition/Sovereignty), but to make the most of it I feel I need to play wide and then Authority really lacks science and culture. Do I make the wrong Pantheon choice ? Or should I try another victory with Epona ?

Happy to hear some advices (which may apply to other civs of course)

 

[Thibix Magnus]

It's tough to say, I've yet to have success with border blob despite it being supposedly OP. In 5.03 I'm seeing broken easy early war (AI now over-prioritises barbarian camps, making their units free picks and leaving cities undefended, it's probably the main tactical AI issue rn) but I feel I face more often a snowballing AI too for some reason, so authority is in a weird place where it is both super OP early but can't keep up if a remote AI snowballs, more feast-or-famine than in 4.22.

For Celts on paper I would use Epona border blob for "chill authority" (more flexible pantheon, conquest pivoting into peace with good infrastructure, continents) and Morrigan for eternal war domination (pangea). In practice, maybe I have the border blob wrong and I just need to use the Epona-Imperium-blob production to go way above supply and drown the oponent under suicidal waves of inferior troops, as the instant production is not affected by supply iirc. A very different warring style than Morrigan that encourages elite unit preservation and leveling. I also wonder about the right timing, I've been told to keep sovereinty after authority but because Epona (as opposed to Russia UA) has no inherent border growth (iirc?) I'm tempted to go sovereingty right after imperium to both proc Epona earlier and boost my capital to try angkor wat.

All in all on 5.03 I still feel more confident I can keep up the snowball with a forest Cerunnos progress start, early UU and messy AI being enough to secure early conquests without authority, but it's probably a matter of playstyle too.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Haven't played the latest version, but warmonger Celts can get a lot of help from their religion. Revealations and Scholarship. Especially Scholarship: since they get no foreign pressure, your cities can easily have high follower numbers, so you get more out of Scholarship than any other civ going for domination.

After taking over 2 civs, conquest usually becomes easy due to numbers. If you can just keep up in science.

What religion did you go for?

Also, a screenshot of your starting area, including the revealed capitals of your closest neighbors would help to give advice.

 

[KlHannibal2]

The pantheon should be chosen based on your start. Border blob is good if you will have early wars or many barbs to kill, or a luxury resource that gives culture. Also consider, if the barb camps can be reached quickly. Having many city states around is also good since a big early Pict army can get max tributes.

 

[KlHannibal2]

If you say 6 to 10 techs behind, is that behind the leading AI, a snowballing AI, or any AI?
6 to 10 behind the leader was msot times OK for me, as long as my neighbors are maybe just 5 techs ahead.

I have come to the conclusion that building wonders is often a luxury in domination games and it might be better to pass on them. They can make sense with celts if you get a good start with early tributes.

 

[andersw]

Hi

Playing with 5.03 I've been trying several games of Domination Celts on Emperor, but I feel it's stalling quite quickly.
Their strong early UU and incentive to go to wars to found quickly usually make it easy to conquer 2 close neighbours, but I find that after that they don't have many warmongering advantages, and at medieval I can already be 6-10 techs behind which makes it tough to sustain wars.
So I guess I must do sthg wrong.
I've tried going a border blob strategy (Epona + Authority + Tradition/Sovereignty), but to make the most of it I feel I need to play wide and then Authority really lacks science and culture. Do I make the wrong Pantheon choice ? Or should I try another victory with Epona ?

Happy to hear some advices (which may apply to other civs of course)

It depends on map type certain map types with lots of small islands are bad for agression, in general I recommend continents or pangea like maps for warmonger play.
Authority yes > fealty > rationalism or imperialism.

Mining first for UU and prio getting out some or a lot of them asap (ignore shrine until later).
Dont hesitate to clean up barbs even before you get authority to speed up getting Morrigan.
Pick Morrigan as belief, it is MUCH better than you think.
Since its a very early strong UU you will use it to tribute as much as possible from citystates around you (until they get enough spears) and the UU just stomps early barbs.
Make sure to upgrade shock > woodsman so you move extra on hills, tundra and forest (desert start? sucks to be you).
This gets will get you a massive early boost in gold, culture and faith.

Found with teocallis, everything else is optional but crusader spirit is very nice for reform, there arent many +combat bonus things available and you also steal this from the AI.

You can go for an opportunistic war against AI player if you have the option but unless its a flatland city that you can surround somewhat easy I would probably avoid it, better to farm yields on barbs and CS tribute.
After this you go normal warmonger route fill up most of early classic (writing, fishing if needed) > early steel and physics and HERE you can declare with trebs and upgraded UU/free company.
(you need to backfill with philo so you can get courthouses if you think you will conquer anything worth keeping)

edit: of course catapult+uu assault on AI can also viable if terrain allows.
Grab terracotta if you can, worth beeling for as any warmonger.

Annex cities with high strategic value, cities with wonders to get full benefit of them, raze or puppet the rest.

If you want to go a bit more passive you can expand a bunch and take ogma, the yields from belief and +5 science from UB is a strong catch up.

The yields on kill and extra move from strong early UU is very similar to why aztecs is so good early on.
You can also do a little bit of that with india archer spam with 4uc even if they arent as strong and lacks the movement.

 

[KlHannibal2]

It depends on map type certain map types with lots of small islands are bad for agression, in general I recommend continents or pangea like maps for warmonger play.
Authority yes > fealty > rationalism or imperialism.

Mining first for UU and prio getting out some or a lot of them asap (ignore shrine until later).
Dont hesitate to clean up barbs even before you get authority to speed up getting Morrigan.
Pick Morrigan as belief, it is MUCH better than you think.
Since its a very early strong UU you will use it to tribute as much as possible from citystates around you (until they get enough spears) and the UU just stomps early barbs.
Make sure to upgrade shock > woodsman so you move extra on hills, tundra and forest (desert start? sucks to be you).
This gets will get you a massive early boost in gold, culture and faith.

Found with teocallis, everything else is optional but crusader spirit is very nice for reform, there arent many +combat bonus things available and you also steal this from the AI.

You can go for an opportunistic war against AI player if you have the option but unless its a flatland city that you can surround somewhat easy I would probably avoid it, better to farm yields on barbs and CS tribute.
After this you go normal warmonger route fill up most of early classic (writing, fishing if needed) > early steel and physics and HERE you can declare with trebs and upgraded UU/free company.
(you need to backfill with philo so you can get courthouses if you think you will conquer anything worth keeping)

edit: of course catapult+uu assault on AI can also viable if terrain allows.
Grab terracotta if you can, worth beeling for as any warmonger.

Annex cities with high strategic value, cities with wonders to get full benefit of them, raze or puppet the rest.

If you want to go a bit more passive you can expand a bunch and take ogma, the yields from belief and +5 science from UB is a strong catch up.

The yields on kill and extra move from strong early UU is very similar to why aztecs is so good early on.
You can also do a little bit of that with india archer spam with 4uc even if they arent as strong and lacks the movement.

Good assessment. About small islands: how come you regard them as bad for agression? There are many good naval civs that can have a good domination run on such a map. Or do you mean early agression?

 

[andersw]

Good assessment. About small islands: how come you regard them as bad for agression? There are many good naval civs that can have a good domination run on such a map. Or do you mean early agression?

Yes good for denmark, spain and a few more but ...
Main concern is that cities are more spread out and you need to build BOTH land and sea units on a land map you can get large sections that are "safe" inside your empire where you barely need any units and you have swift transport with roads and later railroads.
So water is both a barrier for your own defenders movement and an opening for the opponent.
I even hesitate to settle coast on pangea unless its very strong lux or good defendable corner tiles.

 

[Remito]

Thanks for all the answers!
I'm definitely not an experienced or skilled warmonger, I need to improve!

If the "God of war +" pantheon is the way to go for Domination celts, what use would you make of Epona then ? I keep reading that the border blob strategy are OP but I've only found it easy with Russia (and certainly not with Spain)

 

[KlHannibal2]

Epona has also worked for me, but I have not tested all Celt pantheons. The God of war one might be better if you get many kills early. Border props are also boosted by culture. So luxuries that give culture, a cultural city state ally or culture tributes can be good. If you exoect few early barbs, god of war is also worse. If there are many neighbors around the free land of yoir starting location, barb camps can be few since AI units keep revealing tiles. Also, if there are many islands around you where barb camps can spawn, but your tech path does not give you early sailing, barb yields will be low.
Progress into authority is always a fallback option.

 

[MIS]

It's tough to say, I've yet to have success with border blob despite it being supposedly OP. In 5.03 I'm seeing broken easy early war (AI now over-prioritises barbarian camps, making their units free picks and leaving cities undefended, it's probably the main tactical AI issue rn) but I feel I face more often a snowballing AI too for some reason, so authority is in a weird place where it is both super OP early but can't keep up if a remote AI snowballs, more feast-or-famine than in 4.22.

For Celts on paper I would use Epona border blob for "chill authority" (more flexible pantheon, conquest pivoting into peace with good infrastructure, continents) and Morrigan for eternal war domination (pangea). In practice, maybe I have the border blob wrong and I just need to use the Epona-Imperium-blob production to go way above supply and drown the oponent under suicidal waves of inferior troops, as the instant production is not affected by supply iirc. A very different warring style than Morrigan that encourages elite unit preservation and leveling. I also wonder about the right timing, I've been told to keep sovereinty after authority but because Epona (as opposed to Russia UA) has no inherent border growth (iirc?) I'm tempted to go sovereingty right after imperium to both proc Epona earlier and boost my capital to try angkor wat.

All in all on 5.03 I still feel more confident I can keep up the snowball with a forest Cerunnos progress start, early UU and messy AI being enough to secure early conquests without authority, but it's probably a matter of playstyle too.

Epona give 3 border points a turn, and, with Epona, the Ceilidh Hall gives an extra 5