Domination on Immortal/Deity - a noob's guide

Are some maps just unwinnable? I've got one that I have tried Honor and Liberty, and I'm screwed either way (Tradition is out of the question, although Oligarchy might be useful when everything hits the fan)

It's a pangaea map and Immortal level. My scout quickly determines that I'm cut off from the rest of the map by Denmark, so I can't really explore. I settle 2 cities with Honor or 3 with Liberty, and build a bunch of archers plus granaries, monuments, libraries, and a few hoplites and companion cavalry. I steal a worker from a city state and either build another or get one for free from Liberty. I have to research Currency before Construction to fix my negative GPT. Save all my money and upgrade the archers to composite bows. About that time Harald runs over me with a dozen berzerkers. We have about the same number of units but his are 50% stronger than mine.
 

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I don't have the Honor screen shot, but here's Liberty, after trading blows with Harald for quite a few turns. Athens was about to fall, but I'd killed enough of his units that he agreed to a white peace. I'm not sure why, because he's killed most of my units too. His capital is just to the northeast of Aarhus, blocking off access to the rest of the map.

I may try it with Tradition and see what happens.
20170923220544_1.jpg
 
I'd hesitate to say that any map is "unwinnable", considering the high levels of skill that some people have, but I definitely think there are certain maps that are "not-worth-bothering-for-someone-of-my-ability". I'm a lousy player, and personally I would not have bothered with that map. I would have junked the game and re-rolled after I found the choke point (or perhaps even before). One of the reasons why I won't play normal Pangaea maps is that they often seem to have such choke points or bottlenecks. I usually only use Hellblazers Pangaea or Acken's version. Acken's certainly has a setting for "smoothness" of the continent, but I don't think the other has.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nqmod/comments/3x319f/hellblazers_maps_pack_now_avaliable/

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-for-singleplayer-and-ai-improvements.550671/

You don't have to install the whole of Acken's mod -- you can just use the maps. The instructions are somewhere on the thread. And incidentally, Consentient recommended using Acken or Hellblazer maps.

I tend to regard the opening of the game as a bit like when you first look at your hand in poker. Sometimes the cards are so bad there is just no point in continuing. This is one of the chance elements in Civ. I've seen at least one video in which a very good player jacked it in after a few moves because it didn't look promising. I'm not a good player, so I need some help, and I not infrequently roll ten maps before I find a start that I like. Sometimes I just can't get a decent map at all and give up. Sometimes when you are playing cards, you don't get a good hand all night. Usually I just look at the tiles I can see on the first move and decide on that. (I want to see decent production, a reasonable amount of food, and two *different* luxuries.) Other times I play twenty moves or more before I give up. But that is just me. Though it is worth noting that the thread for the Deity Challenge Lineup had quite a lot of discussion about maps, and it took some effort for them to produce ones that led to a good game. They not only had to re-roll often, but sometimes took to editing them as well. You might download their maps and look at them to see what a decent start looks like.

One thing that would have discouraged me from playing this map is the shortage of unique luxuries. Neither Sparta nor Corinth seem to have a unique lux, which is bound to cause happiness difficulties. If I had played this map, I think I would probably have settled right on the Marble on the tundra. It's a poor spot in most ways, but it does have the lux and abundant production. The problem is food, and you would need sailing to capitalise on the fish.

Generally speaking, I find being isolated is a real problem. If you can't meet the other Civs it slows down your tech, makes it difficult to trade, makes it difficult to steal workers, and reduces the ability to use diplomacy. If you know one of your neighbours is a warmonger, it is good policy to bribe them to declare war on another neighbour. It can go wrong, because they can end up spreading over the map and eating up cities, but at least it gives you time to arm yourself. Stealing workers is very important because it frees up precious production to build other things. In fact, that is another potent reason why I wouldn't bother with this map. I seem to recall that Peddroelm intimated that if you couldn't steal one or two workers at least, an Honor strategy was not going to work. You only seem to have one worker, and you really need three, if not four. (Old rule of thumb is about 1.5 workers per city.) Consentient advises stealing as many workers as possible. Moreover, having almost no City States nearby makes it problematic to farm experience. I try to steal a worker from a CS that is close enough for me to keep sending archers to it to be shot, then return home to heal. Eventually they get a composite bow or pike and can kill your units, so you have to be careful. Try to learn which turn they are likely to pop out a defensive unit, and change your tactics. On the subject of experience, I play with this mod, which I find handy for judging both the opposition and my own units:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/modmod-thal´s-flagpromotions-for-cpp.547864/

Personally, I don't bother to build catapults. I'd say that at this stage of the game you ought to have six to eight crossbows, perhaps even ten. They dominate at this stage of the game. I'd advise you to re-read Consentient's first few posts in this thread, and make a few notes for yourself that you can refer to during the game. The general pattern is that you build several archers, which you then upgrade to composite bows, which you then upgrade to crossbows, gaining experience all the time. You should have crossbows by about turn 105-110. I would seriously, seriously suggest you watch Acken's China game video (which I think is linked a little above) and any of Peddroelm's videos. It is a real education, which posts like this cannot begin to approach. I was stunned at some of the things I saw them do -- though I still cannot do them myself :) Getting experience is important, and getting a ranged unit promoted to logistics makes a huge difference.

My advice? Find a better map, and play the first 100-130 turns and see how you do, then try another map. Learn all the techniques for the opening of the game. The opening is the base for everything that comes afterwards, and it is very difficult to compensate for a poor opening (unless you are playing on the lower levels). If we were chess players I think we would practise different openings, so I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Civ5. By the way, my timings are based on Deity -- and I would also highly recommend giving Deity a go. Certain aspects of the game, such as worker stealing and trade, are actually easier on Deity, because workers get built faster, and the Civs have more money to give you for horses and iron (I usually sell the lot, because I don't need them at the beginning, and I know I will need the money for upgrades, bribes, and buying City States -- much better to bribe Shaka to go and crush someone else than to have horsemen that will just get killed by him -- and you get a positive diplomatic modifier from having traded recently).

Best of luck with it :)
 
@zxcvbob, thanks for the screen shot. My first impression where, for T135:
  • Not much of the map is uncovered.
  • Why is there so much forest left unchopped?
  • Yikes, spearmen still!
With the advantage of map knowledge, I settled the nearby coast, then built three scouts which I used to harass and block Harold. I went for Bronze Working after Pottery to build a couple UU and then my three settlers. Plenty of room!

Attached is my screen shot at 135. NC was late, but otherwise I am happy with the game. I just gave Harald gold (lux) to DOW Wu, so that should keep him out of my hair.
civ5ss-4zxcvbob.jpg

@mbbcam, you recommended settling on the Marble, but Marble is better to work. The gold gets the mountain, a hill, and significantly less water. I think the map is fine.
 
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@mbbcam, I started with about 8 composite bows, but most of them died defending Athens. That screen shot is at the end of a bloody war. And there are 2 workers; I stole one from Cahokia, and waited around for a long time for them to build another one to finish improving that luxury tile but they never did, so I made peace with them so I could use my magic Alex powers to ally them for the happiness.

I gave Harald gold to DOW Liz, but that only kept him busy for 10 turns; he wasn't really interested in fighting her, he had his sights on me from the beginning.
 
Hmmm. Very interesting. I went about things in a very different way. As a CB rush was obviously off the menu, I could see no reason to go Liberty. Nor did Honor seem to have much point, as it would be difficult to get to most of the map until late in the game. I therefore went Tradition, but did not use map knowledge to change settling area. I just moved to a hill for the extra production.

Incidentally, I didn't *recommend* settling on the marble. I just said that I would probably have done so, though in fact I didn't when I played the map myself.

I think this is a map that Consentient would describe as not being "Domination friendly". Yes, it is playable, but I certainly wouldn't bother, because although it throws up challenges, they are not of a kind that interest me. I don't want to turtle until I get artillery -- I want to mess around with Crossbows and the like, and get them promoted as far as I can. But it was interesting to try something different for a change.

I also found it was ridiculously easy to bribe Denmark to attack someone else, and it was then very easy to bribe someone to attack them, when the first war had ended. My screenshot is odd because there was a mysterious bug that prevented the unit icons from displaying. I've seen it before, but I can usually get rid of it. Not this time.

Screenshot 2017-09-24 13.24.27.png


If I had continued the game I would have turtled until I got artillery or frigates, then tried to make war. But I think it would have been a very long one.

I was recently re-reading some comments by Klaskeren, which I find thought-provoking:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/how-good-players-think-differently-from-new-players.543050/
 
Captured Copenhagen on turn 63 rushing with archers.
Settled on the gems. Built 1 scout and monument. My warrior went and camped outside Copenhagen until I could steal their worker on turn 19. By that point my scout was an archer and I brought them over to control the choke point so they couldn't send a settler in my direction. Stayed at war and built 4 archers. Opted to go liberty so I wouldn't have to worry about building a settler and get troops out quicker. Built 2 hoplites after the archers. Did make a mistake and lost 1 archer during the siege. Which didn't last very long. The injured hoplite was bait for the city to attack. The hill kept the garrison from hitting it too. So the garrison attacked an archer and I just rotated fresh ones in when necessary since there was only 2 tiles to safely attack from with archers. The hoplite that took the city that was on the sheep attacked the city as well. They hit it hard and I knew I could pillage once and use an instant heal once with them. Just finished another settler and will now eliminate Harold completely so I can explore. I chose to settle Sparta where I did on the gold so I wouldn't have to worry about negative happiness. Also so I can safely send a food caravan to Athens with raging barbarians on so it pays to have it close. That would be my main suggestion looking at other screenshots. Get your capital populations up faster. Pop 7 on turn 135 is too slow. Note that I'm already at 6 and am not sending food to the capital yet. I needed to send it to Cahokia for the gold and trade quest.





Edit here is turn 135. My capital is 14 pop. I have settled 3 more cities. I could have gone after China but opted not to since I was just playing to turn 135 as a comparison. Beijing is a pretty easy target. England would be a pain but after that it would be a quick easy win as the other capitals are all close together. Notice my tech is much further ahead as I'm 2 turns from finishing a university in my capital. I'm only at war with Venice since England asked for a joint war and it allowed me to pillage some caravans. I'm in the process of connecting my last 2 cities with roads thus my gold isn't looking great. I'm just about to get 2 more gold online. I actually settled Sinai and could have gotten a religion if I knew I was going to keep playing.

 
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@zxcvbob, are you trying to get a DOM VC out of this map? Or would you be happy with some other VC? If the latter, Tradition starting with 3 scouts I think makes the game pretty smooth. I am tempted to try again, not moving towards the coast (as that did feel like cheating).

I agree that it is not a DOM-friendly map. Amazing start by @76ers, but I think that is pretty exceptional play!
 
@zxcvbob, are you trying to get a DOM VC out of this map? Or would you be happy with some other VC? If the latter, Tradition starting with 3 scouts I think makes the game pretty smooth. I am tempted to try again, not moving towards the coast (as that did feel like cheating).

I agree that it is not a DOM-friendly map. Amazing start by @76ers, but I think that is pretty exceptional play!

I think I'd be happy with anything except diplomatic victory. I'm playing it again, settled on the gems this time. 2nd city is on the marble about 4 tiles to the NE, and 3rd city is on the river/mountain/gold tile to the west. Honor opener, full Tradition, and pretty soon it will be time to decide if I want to take the left side of Honor and go warmongering. Harald has coveted my lands the whole game, and I can't bribe him to attack someone else (probably Wu), but he hasn't attacked me either. He has the largest military in the game (because berserkers arrive early), but he's also happy that I adopted his religion, and I rescued one of his missionaries from barbs.

I'm beelining Machinery right now instead of Education. Nobody else went Tradition, so I was able to sneak in Hanging Gardens and I'm catching up nicely in science. Gold is a bit of a problem; my happiness dipped negative and my gold city was going to lose population so I had to cash-buy a circus. Built coliseums all around and got that under control.
20170924234104_1.jpg
I like atomic era warfare, so I will probably go domination and just get a late start with it. When I get crossbows, I might ask Wu or Liz to join me in attacking Harald.
 
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Honor opener, full Tradition, and pretty soon it will be time to decide if I want to take the left side of Honor and go warmongering.
Your map looks so much better! Much less fog, and a decent army. The Danish lands are anemic, all because of your blocking units on your east coast!

You are still leaving lots of forest though. Anything within 5 hexes of a city should be chopped early. I don’t like having my cities so close to each other. Why not put Corinth on the coast? Why did you not plant a forth city? Also, don’t bother with Honor unless you plan to fill out the tree (and be at war for most of the rest of the game, after closing Honor out). The Honor opener sets back the strongest policy in Tradition (the finisher). With Raging Barbs, the Honor opener is tempting, but it can wait util after your first tree is completed. You turned policy saving on, so maybe skip it?

I agree with you that the late-game warfare is fun. In my first play, where I was happy to turtle, I was first to Ideologies and got Brandenburg (without trying very hard).

My settle spots gave me a monopoly on Gold, and I used the Brandenburg GG to pick up the local Fur (and another Coal). I had no trouble with Happy and money, and I had good relations right to the end game, despite being the only Freedom civ.

I feel like I should try warmongering, but if I do, I will wait for artillery. I do not think I can take Harald with CBs, and XBs would be after his UU. My arty usually die to GWB, but I was tech leader this game, so I think I could make late DOM work pretty well.
 
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I put Corinth where I did so it would have fresh water. Sparta is my coastal city, and I don't remember but it might be where I built East India Co. I might still settle a fourth city when coal is revealed.

It never occurred to me until this thread to use a couple of warriors (etc) to block chokepoints; Danish scouts could still get past, but not settlers. :)
 
Nice to see some activity in this forum again! Respect to 76ers -- very fine play. I'm clearly much too "old mannish" in my approach. Ah well -- can't turn back the clock. But very good to see different approaches being tried out. There is always something to learn. I'd better go away and revise my methods -- again.
 
It never occurred to me until this thread to use a couple of warriors (etc) to block chokepoints; Danish scouts could still get past, but not settlers.
I learned that trick from others on the DCL series. There was a Byzantium map in particular with Carthage as the troubling neighbor. I can did up the link if anyone likes.
I had trouble with this map because I forgot Harald can land-and-settle on the same turn. Your east coast is hard to block if you settle by T1. So much river, but not for your coastal cities!
The other frustrating thing I had is Harald’s scout showing up on T3, taking all “my” ruins. Even in my first play, I still meet Cahokia first and get Animal Husbandry from a ruin.
 
I met that scout on turn 2 :mad:

It's currently turn 208 and I just captured Copenhagen. About 15 turns ago, Harald landed an embarked settler and some kind of unit (I think it was a trebuchet but might have been a crossbow) on the coast and plopped down a city. I declared war immediately (couldn't get China to join me) and captured and razed that city. Then sent a knight in to pillage half of his iron so his berserkers fought with a substantial penalty. I slaughtered his units in the choke point, which took a while, then advanced with pikes and muskets and two cannons. I lost most of the pikes and one crossbow, and I had to burn a few promotions with "heal instantly" to keep units alive, but I captured it, and transferred out all its great writings. Now I just need to hold the city for a few turns while it and my units heal. Haven't decided if I'm going to capture Aarhus, or just use it for target practice to level-up my galleasses and crossbows, and eventually offer a peace treaty.

I'll attach a pic in a couple of turns once I know the city is not going to fall again.

No one has built Forbidden Palace yet. I might open Patronage and go for it. I missed founding the world congress by 2 turns. I had met everybody and was almost finished researching Printing Press when Venice founded it. As a consolation prize, I earned a great engineer just in time to build the Leaning Tower, and that got me a much-needed great scientist.

20170926000121_1.jpg
Harald is no more.

China is the obvious next target as soon as I get artillery, but she's way ahead in tech and is the military leader (I'm a close number 2.) She might even hit Flight before I research Dynamite. I may split up my army and send a few cannons and knights to London to see if I can snag it and Forbidden Palace. Liz is really weak right now from a prolonged war with Morocco.
 
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It's currently turn 208 and I just captured Copenhagen.
Nice job! And Canons that early is nothing to sneeze out! I only unlocked Chemistry like tens turns later than that, and even could not afford to upgrade my six Trebuchets. So I ended deleting them to build Artillery, and am waiting for Clauswitz to unlock.
 
Thanks. I played a while longer, researching Navigation and Industrialization before Dynamite (planning to Oxford my way to Dynamite) before attacking China. That was a mistake at this level because even tho' I am teching very rapidly, Wu is growing stronger even faster and has totally run away with the game. (and everybody except Liz hates me for killing Harald) I need to reload from right after taking Aarhus and push into China as soon as my units heal and I move all my cannons to the front line.
 
I need to reload from right after taking Aarhus and push into China as soon as my units heal and I move all my cannons to the front line.
Another strategy is to not take Aarhus and make peace instead. Let Wu kill off Harald (which she probably will on her own, but a bribe will do it for sure) so she gets the hate. As soon as you have Dynamite, then DOW Wu, and never stop. If you can recall Harald to life, all the better. In my game, Wu burned Aarhus down. I just wish I had figured out sooner that I was playing an Autocracy CV game (and not a Autocracy DOM game). I never did have to take London.

I just noticed this bit:
Liz is really weak right now from a prolonged war with Morocco.
In neither game did I ever meet Morocco! I need to look at the map more closely! I just thought my game was short a civ!
 
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I reloaded to turn 208, right after I captured Copenhagen. Spent the next 30 turns using Aarhus for target practice to level-up my galleasses and cannons while I researched Banking, Navigation, and Dynamite, and worked my way towards Industrialization. I made peace with Harald, then bribed Wu to DoW him. It took her a few turns (I don't know why) but she captured it and I denounced her. Declared war and liberated Aarhus, and now I'm friends with everybody else. I killed a bunch of Chinese units and captured Kaifeng, and Wu bought a *bunch* of GW bombers. She won't negotiate peace, so I'm probably going to lose all my veteran units. I have Brandenburg, so I can build level-3 land units, but my frigates have range and logistics and I hate to lose them.

I'll have to retreat to Copenhagen and make a stand there until I get AA guns -- and those a long ways off. It's still going a lot better than when I wipe-out Harald :)
 
In your last pic I see a spy in your capital. Better to use it to steal tech or try to rigging election (and mabye try to coup) in a city state next to China, so AI will focus on it and will be easier for you. In single player I use to go ahead Industralization than scentific theory/military science (for Brandeburg gate) try to steal Biology (if I can) and I end Oxford the same turn when I reach steam power to get flight asap if I'm behind on tech. In the meantime i build 3 factories for the Idology (if I have coal) than Public Schools.
Getting dynamite is good but not worth if your enemy has already flight. I always use 3 routes for food (1 each city) and fill scientist specialist.
Wu Zeitan won't negotiate pace because has bigger army than you (maybe she's rank 1 too). By the way, at that time you should already have captured at least 2 capitals.
Keep and eye on the Ethiopian tourism, did you uncheck diplomatic victory?
 
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