domination question: puppet vs annex

[Dushku]

I'm pretty new to aiming for domination victory, so I'm trying to focus on that before go up in difficulties. Approaching this problem, I have a few "problems of habit." For example, I like peaceful play because it's more trade partners for money. Similarly, I'm afraid that if I leave a city as a puppet, it will grow itself, making it harder for me to control happiness, and will build stuff I don't want it to, costing me more money.

Can anybody help me get past this hang up? How do you decide when to puppet and when to annex? No need for basics like don't annex until it's out of resistance unless you have the free Courthouse tenet.

In my current game, I got a city in a peace deal pretty early. I didn't annex it until I was done with the National College. I just took over my first capital and I'm in the middle of building Ironworks, so I wouldn't annex it until after that (though IW isn't as important as NC obviously).

 

[killmeplease]

i typically annex in the early game (if a city has a production potential), puppet in the mid game and sell later

 

[Phukit]

i typically annex in the early game (if a city has a production potential), puppet in the mid game and sell later

I Annex the Caps,puppet any strategically placed expos to continue the war and raze the rest.

 

[zxcvbob]

You can limit growth of a puppet by replacing farms with trading posts. This also slows down their production of stupid stuff.

 

[GenuineRisk]

Before ideologies, the 25% science penalty for puppets is too much to ignore. After ideologies, Police State is too amazing to ignore. Being able to buy units on the front line is also useful. I annex any city worth keeping as soon as it gets out of resistance and I can either buy the courthouse or spare the happiness for a few turns.

If the city isn't worth keeping but provides some strategic advantages/momentum (e.g. great works, airport, strategic location etc.) I'll puppet it and then donate it after I'm done with it to a poorly performing friendly AI. In all other cases, I burn the city immediately.

 

[phillipwyllie]

Every city you found, puppet or annex will permanently increase your tech costs by %5. What you want to do is insta raze, which is the only option that doesn't increase tech costs

 

[beetle]

I'm afraid that if I leave a city as a puppet, it will grow itself, making it harder for me to control happiness, and will build stuff I don't want it to, costing me more money.

It is not worth annexing just for the extra control. And you name two things that are not problems. Puppet governor is reluctant to build things like granaries -- so they grow slow. Puppet governor is gold focused, so it is not costing you money. Puppet governor with build happiness building when global happiness is an issue and will build defensive buildings when you are war. My biggest beef with the puppet governor is that they take on building that they are too production poor to finish in any reason time frame, say a stock exchange at size 4. But they are net positive for gold, science, gold and maybe even culture. I leave cities as puppets unless I really need them to produce units or I have unlocked Police State.

 

[Sclb]

Puppets are horrible for science, build useless buildings such as walls/caravansary etc, mostly work too many gold tiles which makes their city stagnate which limits science. I will always annex when I can take the happiness hit for the turns constructing courthouse, or if I have enough gold to buy courthouse. I prefer domination games where my science will continue to grow as much as I can so that I can extend the tech lead. I usually don't sell science building either unless I know I wont need them. The governor for citizen is useless and I prefer manual assigning citizen in all games. If there is a city that I plan on not keeping, I'll raze it and sell it if I can't take the happiness hit. Otherwise all the puppets are going to be eventually annexed, unless the game will end before they get out of resistance, such as the case for size 30 capitals conquered at the end.

 

[beetle]

Yes, the puppet governor likes to build useless building. But those useless building are also those without gpt maintence costs. So a delay to getting the science building you want into the queue. But is really much more of a delay than building a courthouse? Besides that, the science buildings get into the puppet governor queue soon enough. Meanwhile, even with the 5% penalty, the puppet city is generating enough science to be to the net positive. So what is the problem?

Yes, you could annex to have a little bit better science. But is it really that much better? And then there is rather severe hit to SP costs and additional NW prerequisites. I remain unconvinced that annexing makes up the difference.

As compared to a city you found, yes puppets are “horrible” for science. But they are a net gain for gold/science/culture, so absent other pressing issues (like needing to buy units on the front line) why not just leave them alone?

 

[wideframehoss]

Unless it is a really bad city (location, food, production, luxuries) it is an automatic puppet. And as long as I can afford the happiness hit I will annex the city and micromanage citizens for maximum growth. These captured cities will aid you greatly in late game with science and military production. Not to mention it helps to have these cities connected to your capital for troop movement.

 

[Dushku]

Lots of great info here. Thanks a ton, everybody

Puppet governor is reluctant to build things like granaries -- so they grow slow.

Part of the reason for my concern is because I noticed that puppets seem to build Granaries and worse, Water Mills. Is this because I captured the city so early there isn't a "better" option? Or perhaps that I conquered it after the city had already invested partial hammers, so it's a "path of fewest hammers" situation? I will say it's very possible that my observation of Granary might be existing building. But the Water Mill is something I frequently see puppets building and it encapsulates both of my initial concerns. In my founded cities, I consider Water Mills to be EXTREMELY situational. Meaning I maybe choose to build/buy one 5% of the time.

 

[beetle]

Hmm, I love Water Mills. Production and food? ASAP!

Yes, you could easily be capturing cities earlier than I tend to, so that would explain the different experience. I hardly ever take cities before NC. So, yes, it could be because the puppet governor doesn't have anything else to build. The puppet governor never builds barracks (etc.), nor anything that consumes a resources (factory, nuclear plant) -- but other than that, they will build something -- if they can. Granary and Water Mill are very low priorities for the puppet governor, but could easily be the only buildings available in the early eras. AFAIK the puppet governor does not care about high hammer cost. They prioritize buildings with low gpt maintenance. They actually seem to prefer the science buildings over food/production/culture -- presumably since the science building have relatively high hammer cost and therefore take a while for the gpt maintenance to become applicable.

 

[Phukit]

Lots of great info here. Thanks a ton, everybody



Part of the reason for my concern is because I noticed that puppets seem to build Granaries and worse, Water Mills. Is this because I captured the city so early there isn't a "better" option? Or perhaps that I conquered it after the city had already invested partial hammers, so it's a "path of fewest hammers" situation? I will say it's very possible that my observation of Granary might be existing building. But the Water Mill is something I frequently see puppets building and it encapsulates both of my initial concerns. In my founded cities, I consider Water Mills to be EXTREMELY situational. Meaning I maybe choose to build/buy one 5% of the time.

Watermills are one of the reasons to settle on river tiles.Early food and hammers are very important.2GPT for 2F 1H seems like a pretty good deal.They are not my #1 priority by any means but once granaries and libraries are up i do try to work them into the Q.

 

[BurnBabyBurn]

Played a game about 5 days ago as China and India was to my North. I DOWed and captured his 3 cities. Burnt the first and I placed a Puppet for the last two.

The Capitol and adjoining city were in my mind strategically located... I started a war about turn 180 vs Ethiopia the strongest Science Leader and got caught up in a few tactical lazy game errors. At this point my total science was near 200-220. The science produced from those two cities was about 20-30 each/as Puppets. That's good enough to make up for the 5% difference. So you're right, science will make up for itself with puppets at the right point in the game when they build Science Buildings.

Also what others here forget to mention. I have had several games where I burnt down strategic or otherwise important cities. At some point you need to block the AI, especially if you have one that's spamming cities. He will eat up your trade routes, (ALSO I hate Bomber bases close to my units, terrible when you don't eat up enough Real Estate to prevent) and threaten your flanks. You need to focus on moving onto his Capitol and you don't need thorns in your rear while you do that. You actually have to keep a good deal of cities Puppet to stop yourself being blocked in unless you're running some sort of epic fast faced victory.

Yes, the puppet governor likes to build useless building. But those useless building are also those without gpt maintence costs. So a delay to getting the science building you want into the queue. But is really much more of a delay than building a courthouse? Besides that, the science buildings get into the puppet governor queue soon enough. Meanwhile, even with the 5% penalty, the puppet city is generating enough science to be to the net positive. So what is the problem?

Yes, you could annex to have a little bit better science. But is it really that much better? And then there is rather severe hit to SP costs and additional NW prerequisites. I remain unconvinced that annexing makes up the difference.

As compared to a city you found, yes puppets are “horrible” for science. But they are a net gain for gold/science/culture, so absent other pressing issues (like needing to buy units on the front line) why not just leave them alone?

 

[CalmProto]

I only annex when I can afford to purchase a courthouse.
Usually raze.
Liberating City States is great.
Liberating other capitals, not so much. Puppet them until resistance is through and you can afford them, or you will take the happiness hit.

 

[zxcvbob]

If a city is in a great strategic location or has good potential for growth, and it has a low population or I have a surplus of happiness, I will annex it but not build/buy a courthouse right away. Courthouses are expensive to maintain. I'll get one when the population grows high enough that the unhappiness is obnoxious.

Be careful about annexing or razing a city while you are building a national wonder, because it will probably halt production.

 

[beetle]

I will annex it but not build/but a courthouse right away.

That cannot be strong play.

 

[Phukit]

[Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcvbob View Post
I will annex it but not build/but a courthouse right away.

QUOTE=beetle;14022581]That cannot be strong play.[/QUOTE]

Its not always bad,sometimes you have excess happiness to burn.

This is especially true when taking a large capital that has multiple unique luxes.

I do always wind up building them in annexed cities,just not always the first thing i build there.

 

[Valmighty]

I puppet until they build required national wonder building like library/market for early/mid game. Build trading post, it gives you decent amount of gold.

I usually annex capital cities, since they're the best cities (location, yield, etc) that i conquered. Then use it mainly to production.

 

[Tabarnak]

More you play higher difficulties better are your chances to annex healthy(read: with enough population and some useful buildings) cities and early.

Usually, like another poster said, you want to annex productive cities so you can build a courthouse faster. If you annex below average production cities, make sure to have gold to rush buy courthouses(usually later in game, making sense again with was already said earlier).

But we have also to compare at which speed you want a domination game. Under some settings, you can win below 150 turns for example. In this case, no need to annex at all. Just rush units needed and clean up every capitals. Otherwise you have to deal with the annex/don't annex dillema because usually the AI can't be taken with Xbows over these turns(150+) because you will likely face serious opponents. You will need much stronger techs and therefore need some science and stuff before moving farther.

If you wanna learn fast domination victories there are some articles in the S&T forum that can help you.