Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by nickytootricky, Jun 1, 2015.
I've come to this conclusion after doing some experiments. Even HG. Even Petra.
The reason why people attempt these wonders on Deity is because they have other requirements on top of having the appropriate tech, which automatically reduces the competition for these wonders. Petra requires desert tiles and HG requires tradition. If you notice that the AI has not gone tradition then you can build HG. Petra is riskier and requires a full commitment from the beginning in order to have a chance, but the payoff is a city with monstrous production later on. High risk/reward and all that.
That said, if you want a productive discussion on the topic, you should start with something for others to build off of. What kind of experiments did you run and what were the results? Simply stating a thesis without backing it up isn't conducive to a very interesting thread
Depends on situation I guess. I find I build a few if I'm going OCC. It's not optimal, because usually building settlers is a better idea, but if you're gimping yourself by going OCC then I see no reason not to try wonders. Especially ToA and Hanging Gardens. I tend to not build much else in those eras on OCC because those seem like the two that give the most applicable bonuses. Stonehenge would be nice to give oomph to your religious game (which is harder with one city) but is usually too hard to get, same for GL, great wall is a bit crappy if you only have one city, Terracotta Army isn't usually great unless you want to use it to double your army in a gimmicky way, usually not associated with OCC for me. Parthenon is usually hard to get. Petra is obviously awesome for an occ with any reasonable deserts. Extra trade route is nice too. Pyramids are nice for a liberty conquest game, if you have the early hammers, so that's one I'd consider outside OCC.
On OCC though all of your trade routes will be external so your gold should allow you to buy all of the important buildings and units. I tend to go for just about any wonders from Ren. on in OCC, but early I usually only go those couple mentioned above. In other games I tend to take the wonders I want from other people.
Edit: I forgot about the Oracle! I'll give that a crack every now and then if I have an early philo and not much else to build.
I don't know why, but the AI just doesn't seem to go for Oracle. I've managed to get it many times with just a couple of chops. If I'm building HG however, I probably have two workers chopping like all my forest. Not sure if that's overkill but I've definitely lost it before, even with the chops and semi-early mathematics.
Before the last patch that nerfed Tradition, 4/7 AIs would take it, it seemed to me.
Now I'm unlucky if one does. Most go Piety, Honor or Liberty.
So HG is CONSIDERABLY easier to get now.
If you can see that no one has opened it, go for it, if you're playing a peaceful game and have put out your settlers.
Petra I only build if no one else has desert in their capitals, or on a OCC game where I've beelined it. But really, it's very dirt-dependent.
Seriously, you state something which is imo wrong and ask people to discuss it without giving even the beginning of an explanation to your statement.
And why would it be bad to build antique\classical wonders ? Most games while beelining for education\acoustics, your capital will at some point have nothing to build if you dont go military.
I mean, workers you steal which leaves you with : granary, library, shrine, NC, university (if you dont rushbuy it) and caravans. And then what ? Maybe 2/3 archers tops ? 1/2 extra worker if the stealing was bad ? Maybe a coliseum if you decided to go for early construction because attila is your neighboor ?
All this in a capital with decent dirt and good micro will leave you enough turn to grab at least the oracle imo.
I'd get your statement if you were discussing wonders that require full turn 1 commitment. And even then, it can pay off like hell. Colossus on a 100% coastal cities layout is a beast with that extra cargo. Petra i'm not even saying. And even when beelining for those, you can manage to not be that late. Everything is situational.
So yeah, maybe you discuss it first and give food for thoughts here
I see where this is coming from. Early game wonders have an INSANE opportunity cost, most of them can't really be built in anything under 15-20 turns on Standard, chopping might just whittle it down to a manageable timeframe.
On Deity, the AI doesn't have to build its arduous first settler, that's the point of the early game which weighs the most, because you will end up reasonably well behind if you're not settled in before 60-70ish.
However, on a good enough start, the Petra+HG combo is too good to pass up, it's worth delaying the NC there because the return is immense.
There's also the little bit of getting lots of gold when a wonder has been taken away, at first I didn't really care much about the mechanism but it kind of works
Apologies for not replying sooner, and for the short original post. By "discuss" I meant, "I've thrown this out there, see what they think". Yes it's a bit contraversial. But I think I'm right in most situations.
I don't have any "evidence", but I spent a few evenings playing the same games over and over and comparing results (plus I've played thousands of hours of Deity ) The (subjective) results were overwhelmingly that the opportunity cost of going for wonders outweighs the opportunity of expanding and building infrastructure. This was even the case when there was a great Petra city and I managed to get that and Hanging Gardens. I believe that the initial part of the game is the most important and you are seriously crippling yourself going into the mid-game if you waste time on wonders.
It must be noted that I find win % more important than turn time.
There are of course exceptions to the rule. For example you've gone Tradition and you realise noone is going to build the Hanging Gardens, so you get it after NC. Same with Petra if no capitals appear to be on desert. Collosus if there are no coastal capitals, etc. Or you are going OCC and you have run out of things to build.
Oracle might be an exception but I honestly don't think it's game breaking.
What I am incredibly sure of is that Temple of Artemis, Stonehenge, etc aren't worth building. The drawbacks vastly outweigh the disadvantages.
If we're talking about playing as optimally as possible, then I would agree that unless no one else is going to build it, they are not worth the cost. Especially not if you capture them rather than build them
Yeah, strictly speaking the only wonders actually worth building and not taking are the ones that provide insta buffs like Oracle, Pisa, PT and the culture themed
So yeah, you're talking about going for wonders you have around 0 chance to get vs AIs in Deity (stone, library). Building a classical\antique wonder in Deity when not being at least 80% sure to get it is indeed risky and probably not worth it. And some will then still argue that trying for a powerfull wonder such as Petra with a few Oasis will always be worth the risk. YOu wont find anything in your basic infrastructure that will give you up to 6food\6hammers + 1TR + 8 culture later on. You just cannot compete with that.
Overall i'd agree with you for a general statement on antique wonders for the sole reason that the success ratio is terrible in Deity.
And in the end, it is always the same conclusion. It all depends on the dirt you got, and how you go. I'd say tradition is more friendly with hardbuilding early wonders. Many trees, strong food or even a good hut hunt can also be game changers. it is all situational.
Take DCL30 with the iroquois. You could chop like a crazy person for an early wonder like the colossus. But it could very much end up being far from optimum as it strip you from benefiting a lot more from the long house forest bonus.
I went for the ToA on my first attempt at DCL30, and even though I got it, I set myself back seriously
Since no one has mentioned it yet: Pyramids is well worth the hammers, and can be gotten more than half the time, even with an AI or two opening Liberty.
I'll keep an eye for easy pickin' wonders from the ancient/classical. I mostly agree they are not worth beelining, but if I'm playing liberty and the pyramids weren't built before t60 I'll usually take a swing. OCC or two city openings are different, but I rarely play those on Deity.
If you're playing Liberty, you can build the Pyramids early before expanding. Give it a try
Yeah that's a reasonably good plan
I say that Oracle, HG, Petra and Pyramids are basically the only ones that might worth it.
Oracle gives you a free social policy and with the right pick that may help you a lot. There are many good picks, even if you only get the opener. The extra culture also gives some small bonus, and the GS point helps a lot to spawn that first GS faster (and over the course of the game).
Hanging Gardens, if no one opened tradition, can help a city grow and have early specialists, so you want it in the guilds city. Also you get the free garden, very useful if you don't have fresh water access (plus if you conquer it you have it in a puppet, and the free garden might be lost)
Petra can be very powerful, there is already a thread about it.
Pyramids is by far the one with the lowest opportunity cost (if you are sure to get it), you spend 185 hammers to get 140 hammers back in the form of two workers, and faster workers (to stack with Citizenship for very fast tile improvement). In some situations you may find yourself to have too many workers because of lucky worker steals, but even then the bonus for tile improving is well worth it.
Yes, if you are going Liberty, and that is catastrophic unless going for early domination.
Eh, Liberty works well enough for wider play without going for early domination. It can be catastrophic (i.e, game killing) if it turns out you cannot get 5+ great spots for expos, so a bit of gamble. Liberty is not as easy to play as Tradition, and I think not as strong maybe as much as nine games out of ten, but it is not catastrophic. I consistently enjoy my Liberty games more than my Tradition ones.
How can you see how other AI's opened, especially early enough to matter for HG? (ie on continents not having scouted all AI's yet)
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