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Doviello and Clan of Embers societies.How much they are different?

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by marioflag, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. marioflag

    marioflag History Addict

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    In FfH2 Doviello and Clan of Embers have different characteristics in terms of ethnicity, religion and also gameplay with CoE having their strenght in the numbers while Doviello having more powerful units. I wonder though how do you imagine the difference between their societies? Both societies seems to be based on a tribal code, where the will of the strong should prevail on that of the weak, so violence seems to be the essence of both societies. They both share no interest in culture and research, and both share a primitive economic system (based on barter?).

    The greatest difference i can understand between them is the lifestyle with Doviello preferring a more nomadic one based on hunting, while Clan of Embers having a lot of small villages attacking nearby civs for the control of territory and resources.

    So how do you picture them?

    Which do you think is the most savage?
     
  2. TheJopa

    TheJopa Šumar

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    Hm, I picture Doviello as more savage (they gave up their humanity in order to survive) while Orcs have more 'honor'. I can also picture Orcs turning good again if they refuse to worship fallen Bhall (and Doviello too if they organize themselves) but also I can imagine Orcs turning AV, worshiping both fallen Bhall and Agares and becoming the most vicious creatures of Creation.
     
  3. orangelex44

    orangelex44 Partisan

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    Hmmm.... tough question.

    In my view, the Doviello are perhaps less structured (more nomadic, not into cities and such) while the Clan are paradoxically less centralized (more variation of ideas, more competing factions, no true "leader"). That results in the Doviello being able to attack another civ all-out with everybody, while the Clan has to worry about little things like defense, rebellion, and logistics.

    As for who's more savage, it's probably the Orcs. The Doviello are barbarians, sure - but they don't make it personal, and fight for the sake of fighting. The Clan, on the other hand, despise the other races and would be perfectly accepting of wiping them off the face of Erebus.
     
  4. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    The Clan are probabloy more civilizaed than the Doviello, though its close. Its important to note that there is a big difference between the Clan (Orcs lead by Jonus) and the barbarian Orcs lead by Orthus. the most savage would be the orcs lead by Orthus, then probably the Doviello, then the ORcs lead by Jonus.

    Though its a fine line between all three and they are a world apart from the rest of the civilizations. Many in Erebus would consider all three groups to be sociologically the same.

    Outside of the brutality, the Doviello are very individualistic. The Clan is segmented racially, the goblins, lizardmen, orcs, etc all have their various roles in a sort of monstrous caste system. In the Doviello a tough warrior can go challenge or fight another to take over a new role. In the Clan a powerful lizardman could never take over an orcs position by challenging him, it would turn into a battle between the groups.
     
  5. TheJopa

    TheJopa Šumar

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    Yeah, that pretty much makes sense. Also, evenafter her fall, Bhall remains a god of passion. It makes sense that Orcs fight with passion and weird sense of honor. While Doviello do what they can to survive, struggling under god of War.
     
  6. Skitters

    Skitters Chieftain

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    Considering their chaotic nature, when the Doviello go to war do they all just happen to go to war in the same direction? :)
     
  7. marioflag

    marioflag History Addict

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    This is a really appropriate question. If the Doviello society is so individualistic it would be really hard to coordinate an attack, treason and intercine warfare would be normal aspect of their life (and violence!)
     
  8. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    Yes. Role played the Doviello under Charadon should be extreme opportunistics, worker stealing, killing and pillaging anyone they come across. Withdrawing to less hospitable terrain when true armies approach but otherwise taking everything they can from anyone they come across. They would remain permanently at war with everyone and have to significant cities to be forced to defend.

    The Doviello under Mahala have some potion of a social hierarchy, though Mahala is holding on with her teeth to enforce it.

    The concept doesn't fit well into the civ4 bucket unless we made some areas "doviello barbs" and others "orc barbs" or something like that. But I like the orc barbs better just because they are so recognizable and give players the opportunity to go out and kill "monsters" rather than just fight other men as it is in civ4.
     
  9. Perkin Warbeck

    Perkin Warbeck Chieftain

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    As insane as it seems to argue with Kael- surely there is more of a form of order with the Doviello due to the rule that the strong lead the weak? Do not the other men follow Charadon because he can take out any challenges? To go against a man that can (and will) kill you if you disobey must bring about a good deal of order and unison when they fight. Okay so Charadon had his people killed by wolves and kept those who were strong but I just believe there's more to them than that-- after all the Orcs are enraged as a curse, the Doviello are just men who have taken extreme measures to survive
     
  10. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    Anarachy is a form of government, as contradictory as that sounds.

    Their is a hierarchy in Doviello society but it is very fluid and based on constant personal conflict of its members. Rings are the center of doviello towns and where disputes are handled (if for no other reason than to keep arguments from erupting and involving the whole city). Through submission or death the dispute will be settled and the new standings within the tribe are adjusted accordingly.
     
  11. thomas.berubeg

    thomas.berubeg Wandering the World

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    how quickly were the old bannor twisted into the orcs? (i'm wondering if changes would be noticeable in one lifetime... or at least in the lifetime of someone very longlived (130))
     
  12. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I'd guess that it started pretty quickly, but progressed with time. It is also worth noting that young orks don't look all that different from humans. The protruding bone spikes come with age. Young orks are smooth skinned as humans, just greener.
     
  13. Avahz Darkwood

    Avahz Darkwood Chieftain

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    That would explain some of Shelba's(sp) story...
     
  14. jimi12

    jimi12 Half Jedi

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    i always wondered why Sheelba's LH looked human. so are those bone spikes and stuff naturally occuring or is it a form of self mutiliation or battle wounds?
     
  15. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    That's not exactly anarchy, now, is it? More like warlordism (see China almost every time it collapsed in real history) as a way of life rather than an emergency situation. Funnily enough, the Doviello also seem to be a bit like the Orkz from Warhammer, only human and more concerned with survival rather than fun.

    Incidentally, what would be the political status of Charadon or Mahala? Are they just that strong, or do they also command a certain kind of fear and/or respect that makes challenging them out of the question (as opposed to their various subordinates)?
     
  16. El_Duderino

    El_Duderino Chieftain

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    i think both are feared and respected given the doviello cultures pride in physical combat, but malhala is respected as a effective leader while charadon is respected as a hero from the doviello glory days (if you would consider killing off the illians enemys to be a golden age)
     
  17. DioBrando

    DioBrando Chieftain

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    The CoE are civilized barbarians.

    The Doviello are civilized animals.
     
  18. zup

    zup Chieftain

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    Nope.

    The most disturbing thing about Doviello is that they are indeed human. (It is/was in pedia somewhere.)

    CoE are civilized (to an extent) orcs.

    Barbarians are uncivilized orcs.
     
  19. Blackmantle

    Blackmantle Chieftain

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    @ Kael: I whould be interested in how the "new" Clan of Embers under the Trio (Jonas + Sheelba + to a certain extent Rantine which somehow work together if I'm not mistaken) fits into the whole thing you outlined.

    I always thought since reading the entries that after the arrival of Sheelba + Jonas new commitment to Bhall (which seems to have radically altered his mindset) the Clan might have made a significant step towards a more regular "civ" which learned to channel its passion (without losing it of course). Making targeted raids / wars instead of all out combat-madness (so not utterly unlike the hippus if they fight you might be...). Also the Lizards seem like a small smoldering factor to the overall rage (and i think might have more influence due to a more fitting overall mindset under the Clan than with the regular Barbarians. Where they are likely just refugees fleeing from humans trying to eradicate them because they are viewed as monsters.).
    Am i mistaken?
    (Especially if they should renounce Bhall and embrace Junil / Order of course but to have that happen serious upheaval likely would need to happen...
    Likely involving someone tricking them into open borders and liberal use of Confessors. :D + an alternate Storyline with Sheelba and the Rantine "accident" commited by those Bannor happening in a much different fashion. Couldn't really picture this with Jonas in reign though...
    Even though Orc-Confessors breeding in the double out of the warrens is a prizeless picture... (And surely a fearsome sight in the field...). As is Valin fleeing from his AV Bannor-Hirarchy to the clan...
    Everything turned right on its head... :D)

    Also i picture the clan under the above-mentioned conditions might be much more likely to go "civilized" (especially if Sheelba succeeds in organizing them with the knowledge she gained while among the Banner) than the Doviello under Chardaron. (Which i have a hard time picturing.)

    Thus the new clan seems much more civilized to me than the Doviello under Chardaron.
    Not so sure about Mala though (there those savages seem much more like a band of regular if very warlike and savage people. The Tale of Saverous comes to mind...).
    Chardaron seems to have entered Erebus again rather in the timeframe that is midgame in a usual game of FFH2. (Am i wrong with that one?)
    Animals might fit there thematically. Not so sure about the civilized part...


    And Rantine besides the overall axis of good vs. evil in FFH2 (aka: Civs who follow fallen/evil gods as opposed to those who follow the good ones who want actively fight those fallen gods. In which case he is evil of course because he follows Bhall and furthers her plans. Likely knowingly so.) sounds like a rather reasonable individual to me, wanting overall good for his kinsman (before and after his "call").
    Thus i don't picture him as an especially gruesome monster (as some humans in Erebus / Bannor might.) or incarnation of fury (but still a competent fighter of course. I doubt he liberates barb cities by all words and no muscle... ;))
    Likely much more so than the fallen bannor priests following AV in secret and purging any true followers of the Order (or the Order Bannor Society under crusade for that matter... :p)
    He definately sounds more open to reason and argument than an order-confessor on all accounts... :D
     
  20. Darksaber1

    Darksaber1 Secret Emperor

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    Well, Rantine wants to civilizes the Clan, (even if still evil) but his treaties were betryded by the Bannor (those slimy, dishonist Bastard-Swords), and his dreams crushed (for now).
     

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