DOW gone wild!

[PanicX]

I hadn't played CiV since last November and seeing the new serious updates over the past few months I thought I would give it a shot.. Just to be on the cautious side I started my game at king difficulty -which should be a cakewalk - as so much seems to have changed..

Now, I really like CiV, so this is not intended to be a rant thread.. But this game I'm playing right now... It's just unbelievable.. I haven't attacked a single civ yet as they keep attacking (and getting defeated) on a rotational basis anyway.. Ridiculous.

What amazed me the most however was how in a matter of 15 turns 7 out of 9 civs + 18 out of 24 city states first denounced and then DOWed on me!! I mean, seriously?!?! I'm sure the other 2 are to follow. I've never seen anything like this before in any of the civ iterations.. I can't find time to manage my civ due to all the battles going on. It's suppressed the Total War series!! Now THAT's an amazing feat!

Is anyone else having this issue? I really don't know how the world has turned against me... Sort of hilarious actually. I can't even trade with anyone It wasn't like this back in winter. What in the world have they changed to screw it up this bad

 

[mooseclamps]

Yeah... all my games are a free-for-all. Luckily I pretty much dominate them every time so it's not that big of a deal. If they pillaged tiles I think the game maybe unplayable, but they don't so it's not that big of a problem.

It really kills it for me though... in past civ games I would friend someone and we would be friends throughout the entire game, I would protect them and stuff, it was awesome. Nothing like this is possible with Civ V.

I'm still enjoying playing, but I really think the diplomacy is even worse with this new patch

 

[culdesaclamort]

It really kills it for me though... in past civ games I would friend someone and we would be friends throughout the entire game, I would protect them and stuff, it was awesome. Nothing like this is possible with Civ V.

I disagree. With the latest patch, it has made it much more simpler to maintain (and build!) AI relationships. There was a game I played as Rome and I was buddy-buddy with Washington, all positive modifiers, that lasted until I beat the game with a Science victory. He didn't even denounce me even though I had eliminated the Incas and constantly warring with Mongolia (and denounced by Polynesia).

In my last game, I was friendly with all the civs on the small map, as I was playing for a culture victory. Persia became the runaway Civ midway through the game and was my immediate neighbor to the north. However, we maintained Friendly relations (so much so, that I asked for some Iron and he gave them to me at no cost!) until I started the Utopia Project. As I had constantly blocked his UN victory, he didn't hesitate to DoW me and wipe me from the face of the Earth.

 

[PanicX]

I disagree. With the latest patch, it has made it much more simpler to maintain (and build!) AI relationships.

I have to disagree with this. Remember those 2 civs that hadn't DOWed on me? We were friends for quite some time, excellent relationship, etc.. As soon as the deal was over they also DOWed on me Nice to have all AI against 1 human..

The funny thing is they aren't accomplishing anything. I've lost only a single unit so far. AI? Thanks to 1UPT the losses have already easily reached 3 digits.. Spain is almost dead, but they won't accept a peace deal. In fact no one will!!

True, they are all loosing but this is not fun.. Each turn takes 5 minutes due to all unit maneuvering and I don't see an end to it as no one will have peace even if they are losing.. I simply don't get it..

Well.. Screw you CiV, I'm going to the pub!

 

[Glassmage]

I have to disagree with this. Remember those 2 civs that hadn't DOWed on me? We were friends for quite some time, excellent relationship, etc.. As soon as the deal was over they also DOWed on me Nice to have all AI against 1 human..

The funny thing is they aren't accomplishing anything. I've lost only a single unit so far. AI? Thanks to 1UPT the losses have already easily reached 3 digits.. Spain is almost dead, but they won't accept a peace deal. In fact no one will!!

True, they are all loosing but this is not fun.. Each turn takes 5 minutes due to all unit maneuvering and I don't see an end to it as no one will have peace even if they are losing.. I simply don't get it..

Well.. Screw you CiV, I'm going to the pub!

I have to disagree. The AI's are better now. You just didn't know to renew friendship as soon as possible the turn it ended because 1 extra turn is enough for non DoF "Friendly" AI's to hate you. Especially if their Deceptive modifiers were high enough. You have to remember that even in a triangle of DoF's, one AI might not be bribed to go to war with another, but the other might. Think about that in this case where that concept is being used against you.

 

[ButSam]

I agree that the AIs are better now, and easier to make friends with, but you have to actually help them now (fighting a mutual enemy or something), and you have to just pick one or two, you can't make them all happy. There are also some civs that backstab, and they vary from game to game. Civs that are seeking a Dominion victory will eventually turn on you as well.

 

[strhopper]

If you never trade away open borders and only sign dof with just a couple of civs you will be involved in much less wars

 

[Polycrates]

Here's what I've observed:

The major factor in AI backstabs seems to be military strength and particularly visible military strength in between your cities and them.
A large, powerful army will stop backstabs.
But a moderately-sized army will equally effectively stop backstabs if it's parked visibly near your borders facing that AI.
If that army is moved away, you can often see AIs start maneuvering their troops over to near your borders - this will result in a DoW pretty soon if your troops aren't moved back soon.
In particular, backstabbing "the odds are against me" AIs seem particularly prone to this sort of opportunism.
So when you get attacked by a second AI while you're already at war, it may be that they've made a diplomatic agreement to team up, but it may just as likely be that they've seen you move all your troops away to deal with the first threat. Keeping enough troops for a strategic reserve seems like a wise move.

Acquiring a new, more distant city may make nearby AIs more likely to attack you if (as is likely) it doesn't have much defensive strength nearby. I don't know if it takes that actual defensive value of the city into account, but from what I've seen I think it's likely.

Which begs a related question I haven't figured out the answer to: if you have a strong army, does granting open borders help prevent dow? (since they can see the extent of your strength). If you're militarily weak, it seems to increase attack chance, so I'm not sure if it works in reverse.


Anyway, "friendly" is really more like "warmly neutral"; they're happy to trade with you and they may be willing to take things to the next level. But you haven't done anything to cement the relationship, and there's not really any implied non-aggression pact. They just figure that at the current moment there's more to be gained from being civil than being aggro.
To be actual proper BFFs, you really need to have signed a Declaration of Friendship; then you can be relatively sure* they won't attack you when your back is turned (*may not apply to Alex or Monty).
I also find that to get Declarations of Friendship, it also helps to have a decent army near your borders (I suspect that's why so many AIs will ask for Declarations of Friendship just after you've beaten them in a war). They either want an assurance from you that you won't attack them, or realise they won't gain from sticking the knife in right now.

 

[Glassmage]

OK here is another example of AIs not being completely crazy. I was China playing on TSL map, next to me is Mongol, Siam, and city state Seoul obviously. Wanting to be a China Science win, I start REX a little bit, but because of happiness change in this patch REX is hard. Mongol immediately become "they coveted your land" like the warmonger he is. He built a bunch of warriors and spearmen and declared war on me, with me already being in a triangle friendship with Siam and India.

Siam and India immediately become Guarded at him a little. I know this because you can check people statuses using Info Addict mod. So I went to defend the Northwest of my border, and he already dropped Beshbalik across from the river where I have Shanghai. So I defended and took over Beshbalik, then Mongol want peace and he gives me gold and horse.

Fast forward I need to do something about so I started improving more luxuries and do RA with Japan, India, and later Spain. Siam then REFUSED my DoF the turn it ended. I was not surprised at all because of 2 negative modifers:

1/"you ignored their request to settle near them"
2/"you expanded agressively"

He has lots of army too so I thought war is inevitable. THEN Mongol declare war on Gandhi and myself. Siam asked me 2 turns before if we should go to war together and I said wait 10 turns, but Mongol declared so yea. It MADE sense because he had troops mass at his border and I have my troops + 2 cities + 2 GG + Great Wall. War went in my favor. Open Border with Siam allow him to go up and actually declare on Mongol when near our battlefield. After a few turns Siam has the positive "we fought common foe" and actually ASKED me for a DoF.

The only odd thing is Germany declared war on me and I didn't see anyone.

 

[kaltorak]

Yup, it's not only hostile, it also doesn't make sense.

In my last game I managed to get into a "love triangle", which is the best for good relations, since you not only get the DoF bonus but also the friend of friend bonus. I also kept gifting them open borders and giving in to all demands, and declaring on their enemies.
Well that worked some time. But then not only did they start hating me, for no reason other than other random leaders denouncing me (without any DoW from my side), but also the enemies of my friends which i treated bad to please my friends, suddenly were friendly.

This kept going on. Friends turning hostile, hostiles turning friends, friends demanding stuff like it would be a threat.

yes sure, I managed to keep 2 friends for quite some time, but it was absolutly not good for anything. I work on friendship because I like it and want to share wars and be allies in the future. But it's not worth anything. After years of friendship, some random guy denounces me and my friends hate me for it. After me helping them against their enemies. And their enemies, suddenly like me.

It's just a mess. If this is the best you can come with, just copy paste civ4 diplomacy. It's not the best, and after so many years of civ you could have improved it, but its 3 times better than this nonesense.

 

[Babri]

Well the AI is playing to win. The AI identified you as 'human' & decided to eliminate you.

 

[Vladesch]

AI doesnt play to win.
It plays to suicide.

If it was just friendly and defended itself (or attacked when it can actually win), games on king and above would be far harder.

I don't think the dev's are listening though. How long is it now? A year?

 

[PanicX]

OK I'll use a couple of point suggested here but this still doesn't resolve a couple of glaring issues.

1) AI civ that first started this madness (Spain) by attacking me is on the brink of extinction and they still won't accept peace.
2) The rest of the world considers me a warmonger because... I don't know why. Because I'm beating an AI in a war they started?
3) Every single AI has DOWed on me.. I mean, come on! Red is the only color I see when I open up the diplomacy screen. It truly is a charade.

4) This is the worst part.. Even with the whole world against me, they're still losing.

All in all I don't see how a builder like me ended up in such a massive scale 'total war'. I don't think the AI diplomacy is any better than back in winter. In fact by the looks of this game I would say that it's almost as bad or even worse. I'll try out a couple of different games to come to final verdict though. It's hard for me to judge a civ game too harsh

 

[JamesCivFan]

Yup, it's not only hostile, it also doesn't make sense.

In my last game I managed to get into a "love triangle", which is the best for good relations, since you not only get the DoF bonus but also the friend of friend bonus. I also kept gifting them open borders and giving in to all demands, and declaring on their enemies.
Well that worked some time. But then not only did they start hating me, for no reason other than other random leaders denouncing me (without any DoW from my side), but also the enemies of my friends which i treated bad to please my friends, suddenly were friendly.

This kept going on. Friends turning hostile, hostiles turning friends, friends demanding stuff like it would be a threat.

yes sure, I managed to keep 2 friends for quite some time, but it was absolutly not good for anything. I work on friendship because I like it and want to share wars and be allies in the future. But it's not worth anything. After years of friendship, some random guy denounces me and my friends hate me for it. After me helping them against their enemies. And their enemies, suddenly like me.

It's just a mess. If this is the best you can come with, just copy paste civ4 diplomacy. It's not the best, and after so many years of civ you could have improved it, but its 3 times better than this nonsense.

I cannot agree more on this. I generally like the game after the June patch, but the constant Declarations of War are a major disappointment . They should really focus on the AI only in the next patch. There were points were a civ declared war on me, even though it already was in another 2 (yes ,TWO) wars with other civs. Being a warmonger is one thing, but starting wars with 3 nations at the same time when you obviously do not have the sufficient military power to do so, is plain stupid.

 

[svett89]

From my personal experiences, the AI diplomacy is MUCH better since the June patch. I have however only played 3 games so far, so I might just have been lucky.

As an example, I played a domination game as France earlier today. King difficulty (used to play Emperor pre-patch) and I managed to keep an Alliance going with Russia for almost half the game, even though they had a bigger military, shared borders with me and were competing for the same city states. Eventually, they started hating me too, but not until I had completely wiped out two other Civs and two City States.

As for the large amounts of DoWs, I don't think it is that bad actually. The AI isn't unreasonable (like it used to be), it just spots when it thinks it has a military advantage and seems to judge pretty well if it's worth to go to war or not. For instance, I had a pretty bad relationship with England in my last game, their military was around my strength, but they wouldn't attack me. I ignored them as they were at war with Russia at the time, something which I thought would keep Lizzy occupied. But, uh-oh, Russia signed peace with Lizzy, and as my forces were off fighting Egypt, Lizzy took the chance to attack me. The AI actually realized that my forces were far away and that that meant a great oppurtunity to attack me. Not that it helped much as the combat AI is still pretty stupid.

 

[Yzman]

I have noticed the AI change its game plan ( like they said in the recent patch). I had a weak military but was friends with everyone on my continent. Mongolia systematically eliminated everything, remaining friendly with me the whole game. Finally I build the apollo program, all is still good. Now Alexander is the other powerful force, on the other continent. I think at this point Mongolia realized it could not win a conquest victory. It built the Apollo program around 10 turns after me and then suddently went to hostile. When I checked the diplo modifiers they all changed
They believe you are a warmonger
They think you are trying to win the same way as them and they don't like it!
They covet lands you currently own.
etc etc
So my impression is that the AI will now consider its options. Mongolia was large so he probably thought he had a good chance of launching that spaceship. However I would launch it first. He goes hostile and sure enough declares war on me. Unfortunately for him, he declared war on me on the turn I launched the ship.

So yes, the AI can be friendly with you, but its just like playing with real people, its only for as long as you benefit them. As soon as they see that you are getting away with a possible win, they try to stop it.

 

[cman2010]

yeah the ai is broken and needs a fix, hope they fix it with a patch sometime.

 

[PanicX]

Has anyone actually played a game with the new patch and didn't end up getting into some sort of war all the way to the end? I'm talking about a continent or pangea type of map. This was possible before. I don't think it's possible anymore..

 

[spfun]

What i truly don't get is when i have a massive & technologically advanced army but am remaining at peace does a random friendly neighbor DoW stating that they are basically commiting suicide against you. Is that the AI trying to win? well it wanted to die so i took its 8 cities in about 5turns. Well played AI well played...

I do think the diplomacy is still pretty weak in this game, on an island its hard to have anyone DoW on you, even with no military no one ever DoW me... while on a land based map its hard to not get DoW a lot.

 

[beestar]

Well the AI is playing to win. The AI identified you as 'human' & decided to eliminate you.

This is an interesting point. Clearly AI players get bonuses which the human doesn't benefit from. But do they know which opponent is the human? Or do they treat everyone they negotiate with using the same algorithms?