Bartleby
Remembers laughter
lurker's comment: I might be tempted to have the Ottomans instead of the Germans; I've noticed a tendency of the Germans to go for philosophy, while the Ottomans will definitely get polytheism for you.
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Down on the Farm: Team Histographic #1
- Thread starter Elear
- Start date
You don't seem to understand? Alphabet must be at 50 turns. You can't do it faster than 45 (as far as I can tell). Writing can probably be done in 30-some, which is fine if that's your point. But there is no such thing as Alphabet on max. Min Alphabet strategy isn't so much a strategy as a necessity.
You might be surprised at how slow the tech rate can be. On Huge/Sid, you can even find one or more civs without writing in 500 BC.First to Philosophy is doable.
lurker's comment:
I just played about 8 starts for my Huge DG Conquest game and I found the following:
On river start you get Alpha on max between turn 35 and 40, Writing being another 25 to 30 turns off.
Looking at these numbers I have started going min for Alpha and then max for Writing which is the most efficient way I believe. The Monarchy Slingshot is still a freebie with this on Demigod, I actually had 2 games where the AI didn't manage to get Poly in time.
I played a two wheat start here where I got Alphabet in 2590 BC. If I recall correctly, 4000-2750 BC all goes at 50 years/turn for 25 turns, and then 2750-2590 at 40 years/turn for 4 turns. So, that's 29 turns. I roaded the first wheat and then irrigated and went with a max run from turn 1, even though it read 50 turns, because that way I had more beakers towards Alphabet earlier. I didn't use any scientists. I went with the settler first, which probably balances out since I had a wheat instead of a cow. Standard Deity tech cost doesn't seem too bad... Standard Sid comes as another story.
Spoonwood,
I took a look at the saves and you are indeed correct. However there are unhappy citizens when you can only have the slider at 30 percent. It needs to be at 40/50/60 percent in the early game to keep everyone happy.
We could sacrifice those happiness points for the sake of strategy to help get Philosophy first...? Our domination limit will be higher than the 25k game, which was on pangaea, so it's possible that we can afford to. Let me know.
This is why min Alpha/Writing runs are common on the top milk runs -- I just hadn't made the mental connection in my mind. They would go for max, too, but they figure the extra points from the early game are so vital, that it's worth playing more games...they just wait for the game where the tech pace works out just right.
-Elear
I took a look at the saves and you are indeed correct. However there are unhappy citizens when you can only have the slider at 30 percent. It needs to be at 40/50/60 percent in the early game to keep everyone happy.
We could sacrifice those happiness points for the sake of strategy to help get Philosophy first...? Our domination limit will be higher than the 25k game, which was on pangaea, so it's possible that we can afford to. Let me know.
This is why min Alpha/Writing runs are common on the top milk runs -- I just hadn't made the mental connection in my mind. They would go for max, too, but they figure the extra points from the early game are so vital, that it's worth playing more games...they just wait for the game where the tech pace works out just right.
-Elear
Elear said:
I understand the idea here, but how much will the very early game here matter? The final score comes out as an average of all turns. In the very early game where we have but a few cities and a few citizens, the extra happiness nets us only a few more points. Once this gets averaged into your score, I don't think it matters all that much. 5 points vs. 10 points on turn 16 probably doesn't matter a whole lot (if at all) when you have many more turns of thousands and thousands of points. So, I think getting Philosophy first outweighs that temporarily loss. If we can pull off the slingshot, I definitely think it outweighs the loss. 1000 points vs. 1100 or 1200 I definitely see making a signficiant difference, so I agree with the basic idea... I just don't think it warrants raising the luxury slider *this* earlier, when we can at least get to Philosophy first. I did get The Republic slingshot vs. the same 4 scientific tribes in my *pangea* demi-god game. Actually, my 1000 BC save there indicates I had 26 cities (I got an SGL on Alphabet which I used for the Pyramids right away). I had the luxury slider at 60%. I know I had done max runs on Alphabet, Writing, Code of Laws, Philosophy (getting The Republic as my freebie), and Currency, so I had just learned Currency a few turns before. I had a score of 875 at that point, and must have just started raising the luxury slider to beyond what I needed for citizens not to revolt. I don't know how to do the calculations really, but I doubt that any points I lost there I didn't make up by becoming a republic earlier and growing faster, and consequently getting more production and commerce in sooner. With respect to this also, once we become a Republic, I think it best to first irrigate ourselves up to size 12 or so and then mine/forest for maximum shields.
Like I said, I'm fine with trying it that way. It won't make a real difference to me, just a little change. 
What you say makes as much sense as trying to keep happy, so, it's all the same to me.
I would try to keep the luxury slider as high as possible, though, even within the constraints of maximum research. We will probably make some gold selling Pottery and that will be enough to get us going.
What you say makes as much sense as trying to keep happy, so, it's all the same to me.
I would try to keep the luxury slider as high as possible, though, even within the constraints of maximum research. We will probably make some gold selling Pottery and that will be enough to get us going.
Sure, sounds just fine to me. However, something has come up and I need to be away all weekend. I will be back Monday.
I know you work a lot during these days anyway, so it hardly should take away from our time.
Could you possibly run some maps and play through the first ten turns and post the best couple in this thread so we could continue a game when I return, hopefully? (Only high 1800s or 1900s on the dom limit + a second cow).
-Elear
I know you work a lot during these days anyway, so it hardly should take away from our time.
Could you possibly run some maps and play through the first ten turns and post the best couple in this thread so we could continue a game when I return, hopefully? (Only high 1800s or 1900s on the dom limit + a second cow).
-Elear
My second highest start that mapfinder found for me has a domination limit of 1949. It has two cows, but looks coastal. The start here has a domination limit of 1970, and when I moved to plant on the hill I noticed a game nearby.
1-4000 BC Moved to plant on hill, road cow.
2-3950 BC Found 001. Open research on Alphabet at maximum. Start on a worker.
3-3900 BC Irrigate cow.
4-3850 BC Click.
5-3800 BC Click.
6-3750 BC Worker moves to grassland near game city site.
7-3700 BC 001 worker-settler. Move new worker north, road BG.
8-3650 BC Road BG.
9-3600 BC Mine BG.
10-3550 BC Mine other BG.
11-3500 BC Lux. slider to 10%.
12-3450 BC Culture pops and we see a coast, that's fine with me. I think the first settler should go two squares east, plant on the diagonal in between the mountain and then game. We can chop the game here soon, and then irrigate it. Maybe we should wait until we have another worker out to do that though, unless you can accurately predict where the shields will go. I know there's something with the keypad, but I don't remember.
1-4000 BC Moved to plant on hill, road cow.
2-3950 BC Found 001. Open research on Alphabet at maximum. Start on a worker.
3-3900 BC Irrigate cow.
4-3850 BC Click.
5-3800 BC Click.
6-3750 BC Worker moves to grassland near game city site.
7-3700 BC 001 worker-settler. Move new worker north, road BG.
8-3650 BC Road BG.
9-3600 BC Mine BG.
10-3550 BC Mine other BG.
11-3500 BC Lux. slider to 10%.
12-3450 BC Culture pops and we see a coast, that's fine with me. I think the first settler should go two squares east, plant on the diagonal in between the mountain and then game. We can chop the game here soon, and then irrigate it. Maybe we should wait until we have another worker out to do that though, unless you can accurately predict where the shields will go. I know there's something with the keypad, but I don't remember.
lurker's comment:
I believe its from the forest to the North 1 step and clockwise around. Then out a second step and clockwise around again. First city found that way gets the shields.
North may be northwest in reality but I am quite sure it was one of those.
The other way to make sure, is to switch one of the cities top a wonder, but of course that is only feasible if it doesn't complete in the same interturn.
I believe its from the forest to the North 1 step and clockwise around. Then out a second step and clockwise around again. First city found that way gets the shields.
North may be northwest in reality but I am quite sure it was one of those.
The other way to make sure, is to switch one of the cities top a wonder, but of course that is only feasible if it doesn't complete in the same interturn.
Bartleby
Remembers laughter
lurker's comment: The forest chop starts at "9" if you're thinking in terms of number keypad. Towns set on Wonders/Palace/Wealth will be skipped.
ThinkTank
RL Addict
lurker's comment:
Standard map, archipelago, deity - why focus so much on a second settler factory? I can see the use of a worker factory but that is less constrained shield wise. Or do you play for being alone on a large island (almost continent sized), and reroll if not?
Standard map, archipelago, deity - why focus so much on a second settler factory? I can see the use of a worker factory but that is less constrained shield wise. Or do you play for being alone on a large island (almost continent sized), and reroll if not?
ThinkTank said:
By settler factory, I really mean settler-worker factory. But still, here I mean primarily settlers, at least for a while. Good question ThinkTank.
We only have 4 opponents. So, there exists a slew of territory to fill up, especially compared to a 7 opponent or max filled game. Also, the sooner we fill up territory, the sooner we raise our score, both by having more territory and by having more content or happy citizens. I said above...
I also founded at least 3 towns in 975 BC and soon had more on the way in that one (we won't expand *that* fast, but still). Oh, and I lost one early on via an ultra-early sneak attack by Hammy. You can check my saves here http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ3/game_info.php?entryID=2459 The AIs will expand faster in this game than in that one, but we'll still need and want a slew of settlers and fast... not to mention workers. Also, the AIs will kill us in culture... so we might need some razing and replacing... so that's even more settlers.Spoonwood said:
60 percent archipelago usually makes for decent sized landmasses. Two settler factories is acceptable, especially once Map Making comes along and you want to start colonizing the world. Also, as Spoonwood said, usually these don't end up being solely settler factories. One of them will probably end up making quick workers as much as anything. New cities will all make workers, pretty much.
It depends how fast we get Alphabet. I'll have to take a look.
It's a tough decision, because normally the early granary more than makes up for itself by 1000 BC, yet if we're trying to maximize research, it may indeed pay to get commerce and curraghs from several new towns before trying to set up a granary or two.
I should have a turnlog within an hour or so, and hopefully we'll have a promising game on our hands rather than just a possibility!
Note: Can we try to name the workers for now for the sake of convenience? Once we pass QSC, it's not as important, mostly because there are just too many workers to bother to name them at that point. However, pre-QSC, it helps to identify what we're doing.
I name the workers to Worker #1 and Worker #2. Worker #1 is 1N from 001, Worker #2 is 1 NE,1 E.
Also, could you attempt to at least post one screenshot at the end of your logs? It's fairly easy at the moment since we're just showing expansion. Once we have combat and trades, more may be desirable.
3450 BC (0) - Everything looks fine. I proceed.
3400 BC (1) - Worker #2 finishes mining. Moved 1W,1N to BG.
3350 BC (2) - Worker #1 finishes mining. Moved 2S to BG. Worker #2 starts road. L-slider -> 20%.
3300 BC (3) - 001 grows to size 3, citizens balanced 1h/1c/1u due to l-slider @ 20 percent. Can't adjust down to 10 percent. Tiles seem fine: allocated to irrigated+road cattle, mined+road+river BG, mined+road+river BG.
3250 BC (4) - 001: Settler -> Settler. Size 1 again so l-slider -> 0%. S-slider -> 100%. Alphabet in 25. Worker #2 completes road, starts mine.
3200 BC (5) - Worker #1 completes road, starts mine.
3150 BC (6) - Found 002 2E from 001. 002 starts granary next (since worker in 4 with growth in 7). Sadly only one BG in range. Forests will be critical to provide shields for quick settlers/workers in 002 so be careful not to chop too much. Conversely, chopping forests may reveal BG...
We will have to make critical decisions on how to manage this city. The good news is founding 002 revealed a grassland river just to the north.
L-slider -> 20%. S-slider -> 80%. Alphabet in 19.
3100 BC (7) - Realize 002 is working the game instead of the improved BG. Switch to the improved BG for +1 commerce. Alphabet in 12. L-slider -> 10%, S-slider -> 90%. Alphabet in 11.
3050 BC (8) - Worker #2 finishes mine. Worker #2 -> 002 game.
3000 BC (9) - Worker #2 starts chop on forest game. Worker #1 -> 1SW to BG.
2950 BC (10) - Worker #1 starts road. L-slider -> 20%, S-slider -> 80%. Alphabet in 9.
2900 BC (11) - Nothing.
2850 BC (12) - 001: Settler -> Granary. Worker #1 finishes road on BG. Starts mine. Settler 1S,1SW,1S to coast. Worker #2 finishes chop on game. Granary in 11. Worker #2 starts road on game. Can't adjust luxuries down from 20% due to 002 (growth in 1).
2800 BC (13) - Founded 003 2S,1SW of 001. Started Barracks (pre-build for curragh). Alphabet in 6. The timing seems to have worked out. Based on my calculations, we can have the curragh 8 turns from now.
We're now rounded off to 25 turns. Could you play 15 turns next, then we'll do 10 each thereafter?
I think it's straightforward currently. Your turnset will consist of getting the granaries in, so perhaps you can provide your thoughts on which locations would be ideal for the next few cities. It's hard to tell at the moment, with yet much fog to clear, but it seems to me like N of 001 and by the river N of 002 are the best potential places, likely on an offset CXXXC spacing or CXXC if directly vertical alignment.
We also badly need another worker or two, but it seems that will have to wait until the first granary is complete. It will be difficult to keep ahead of our expansion if we cannot get some adequate roads and exploration into the north. I recommend using Worker #1 near 003 to start getting us some roads N or slightly NE from 001, while Worker #2 continues to improve around 002, particularly irrigating the game. Once Worker #2 does that, perhaps he can try to get some roads NE/N from 002.
I name the workers to Worker #1 and Worker #2. Worker #1 is 1N from 001, Worker #2 is 1 NE,1 E.
Also, could you attempt to at least post one screenshot at the end of your logs? It's fairly easy at the moment since we're just showing expansion. Once we have combat and trades, more may be desirable.
3450 BC (0) - Everything looks fine. I proceed.
3400 BC (1) - Worker #2 finishes mining. Moved 1W,1N to BG.
3350 BC (2) - Worker #1 finishes mining. Moved 2S to BG. Worker #2 starts road. L-slider -> 20%.
3300 BC (3) - 001 grows to size 3, citizens balanced 1h/1c/1u due to l-slider @ 20 percent. Can't adjust down to 10 percent. Tiles seem fine: allocated to irrigated+road cattle, mined+road+river BG, mined+road+river BG.
3250 BC (4) - 001: Settler -> Settler. Size 1 again so l-slider -> 0%. S-slider -> 100%. Alphabet in 25. Worker #2 completes road, starts mine.
3200 BC (5) - Worker #1 completes road, starts mine.
3150 BC (6) - Found 002 2E from 001. 002 starts granary next (since worker in 4 with growth in 7). Sadly only one BG in range. Forests will be critical to provide shields for quick settlers/workers in 002 so be careful not to chop too much. Conversely, chopping forests may reveal BG...
We will have to make critical decisions on how to manage this city. The good news is founding 002 revealed a grassland river just to the north. L-slider -> 20%. S-slider -> 80%. Alphabet in 19.
3100 BC (7) - Realize 002 is working the game instead of the improved BG. Switch to the improved BG for +1 commerce. Alphabet in 12. L-slider -> 10%, S-slider -> 90%. Alphabet in 11.
3050 BC (8) - Worker #2 finishes mine. Worker #2 -> 002 game.
3000 BC (9) - Worker #2 starts chop on forest game. Worker #1 -> 1SW to BG.
2950 BC (10) - Worker #1 starts road. L-slider -> 20%, S-slider -> 80%. Alphabet in 9.
2900 BC (11) - Nothing.
2850 BC (12) - 001: Settler -> Granary. Worker #1 finishes road on BG. Starts mine. Settler 1S,1SW,1S to coast. Worker #2 finishes chop on game. Granary in 11. Worker #2 starts road on game. Can't adjust luxuries down from 20% due to 002 (growth in 1).
2800 BC (13) - Founded 003 2S,1SW of 001. Started Barracks (pre-build for curragh). Alphabet in 6. The timing seems to have worked out. Based on my calculations, we can have the curragh 8 turns from now.
We're now rounded off to 25 turns. Could you play 15 turns next, then we'll do 10 each thereafter?
I think it's straightforward currently. Your turnset will consist of getting the granaries in, so perhaps you can provide your thoughts on which locations would be ideal for the next few cities. It's hard to tell at the moment, with yet much fog to clear, but it seems to me like N of 001 and by the river N of 002 are the best potential places, likely on an offset CXXXC spacing or CXXC if directly vertical alignment.
We also badly need another worker or two, but it seems that will have to wait until the first granary is complete. It will be difficult to keep ahead of our expansion if we cannot get some adequate roads and exploration into the north. I recommend using Worker #1 near 003 to start getting us some roads N or slightly NE from 001, while Worker #2 continues to improve around 002, particularly irrigating the game. Once Worker #2 does that, perhaps he can try to get some roads NE/N from 002.
