Download database restructuring

[The_J]

Hello everyone,

@Blake00 brought it to our attention that the download database might need some restructuring, since currently scenarions from ToT and MGE are intermixed, and they are not compatible.

Now the question: What would make most sense?

Currently the structure is the following:
Civ2
- scenarios
- modpacks
- maps
- graphics
- programs
- references
- patches

What would be best:
- make 2 categories: MGE + ToT, and have the same structure below?
- make 2 categories, and change the structure? (I am unaware: Are there differences here for modpacks and scenarios?)
- something else?

- are sub-categories in the scenarios okay as they are?


Please give us some input .

 

[techumseh]

Thanks for doing this. Since ToT is still Civ2, most of those categories are common to both. The only ones that should be separate are scenarios, unit graphics (maybe) and possibly modpacks, of which there are relatively few of either type. Most unit graphics for ToT are located in several sticky threads on the SL forum now, but it would be great if someone wanted to consolidate them on the data base. In my opinion, priority should be given to separating the MGE and ToT scenarios.

 

[Blake00]

Once again thanks for all this The_J! When I started that original thread I didn't think it would lead to much but I thought if there's even a chance that a member of staff might take an interest and take on the challenge then I had to try. It'll help with my preservation work and it'll help the Scenario League guys as their awesome advanced ToT scenarios and modern conversions won't get buried and mixed in with all the old stuff anymore.

Yup techumseh is thinking on a similar line to where I was going in the original thread, which is that while scenarios and modpacks should be separated the other stuff either shouldn't be or may be too much trouble to worry about. Eg as far as I know 'Maps' are loadable in both MGE & ToT so they don't need to be separated (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that as I've seen some people label maps with 'ToT'). 'Graphics' can be split however it takes us back to the original discussed issue of trying to detect 8bit vs 16bit images to workout whats ToT and whats not which might be more trouble that its worth, although there's only 81 files in there and some people have been good with their ToT/MGE labeling. 'Programs, References, Patches' also fit into the doesn't really matter category however there's hardly any files in there so separating them would be pretty easy if we did. And yeah the subcategories (fantasy, scifi etc) inside scenario & modpacks are fine as they are IMO.

Creating two whole separate download sections is probably going too far plus I don't know if it's even possible to have one sub category (maps) shared across 2 separate download sections? So simply having separated ToT and MGE sub categories under the existing Civilization 2 download section may be best. Since then you could do something like..

If separating all sub categories except for maps...

Civilization II Downloads

• Test of Time
  • Scenarios
  • Modpacks
  • Graphics
  • Utility Programs
  • Reference Files
  • Patches & Updates
• Classic Civ2 (MGE & Older)
  • Scenarios
  • Modpacks
  • Graphics
  • Utility Programs
  • Reference Files
  • Patches & Updates
• Maps

If only separating scenarios and modpacks...

Civilization II Downloads

• ToT Scenarios
• ToT Modpacks
• MGE & Older Scenarios
• MGE & Older Modpacks
• Maps
• Graphics
• Utility Programs
• Reference Files
• Patches & Updates

There's also the reverse tier layout but I'm not sure if I really like these..

Civilization II Downloads

• Scenarios
  • ToT
  • MGE & Older
• Modpacks
  • ToT
  • MGE & Older
• Maps
• Graphics
  • ToT
  • MGE & Older
• Utility Programs
  • ToT
  • MGE & Older
• Reference Files
  • ToT
  • MGE & Older
• Patches & Updates
  • ToT
  • MGE & Older

Just scenarios & modpacks reversed..

Civilization II Downloads

• Scenarios
  • ToT
  • MGE & Older
• Modpacks
  • ToT
  • MGE & Older
• Maps
• Graphics
• Utility Programs
• Reference Files
• Patches & Updates

Out of all that I think the first one looks nice. Coming up with better terminology for the folder names is another good discussion point too lol.. eg "MGE & Older", "Classic Civ2", "MGE/FW/CiC".. I'm not great with words and acronyms so I dunno..

I'll copy @Prof. Garfield 's tags from the other thread here with some extras so people know there's a new thread and things are really happening now! @JPetroski , @CurtSibling , @Knighttime , @tootall_2012 , @Fairline , @Civinator @gapetit @Tanelorn @Broken_Erika @McMonkey @Thorvald of Lym . Hope others lurking here give their thoughts too!

.

 

[The_J]

Thanks for doing this. Since ToT is still Civ2, most of those categories are common to both. The only ones that should be separate are scenarios, unit graphics (maybe) and possibly modpacks, of which there are relatively few of either type. Most unit graphics for ToT are located in several sticky threads on the SL forum now, but it would be great if someone wanted to consolidate them on the data base. In my opinion, priority should be given to separating the MGE and ToT scenarios.

Thanks for your input .

Regarding SL graphics into the download DB:
- would this be wanted by the SL members?
- if so, this would be pending on if I could automate this, which I'm not sure (you guys have made lots of great things, so I think manually doing this is out of question)

'Graphics' can split be however it takes us back to the original discussed issue of trying to detect 8bit vs 16bit images to workout whats ToT and whats not which might be more trouble that its worth, although there's only 81 files in there and some people have been good with their ToT/MGE labeling.

The separation should still automatically be possible. I just need to figure out what exactly separates the 2 versions, but that should be possible.

'Programs, References, Patches' also fit into the doesn't really matter category however there's hardly any files in there so separating them would be pretty easy if we did. And yeah the subcategories (fantasy, scifi etc) inside scenario & modpacks are fine as they are IMO.

This has been my thought as well after having a look at the categories.

Civilization II Downloads

• ToT Scenarios
• ToT Modpacks
• MGE & Older Scenarios
• MGE & Older Modpacks
• Maps
• Graphics
• Utility Programs
• Reference Files
• Patches & Updates

I think this might make the most sense, although only if we don't separate the graphics.
Overwise a mix of your first suggestion would be best: MGE + ToT sections with scenarios/modpacks/graphics, rest on the Civ2 level.

Out of all that I think the first one looks nice. Coming up with better terminology for the folder names is another good discussion point too lol.. eg "MGE & Older", "Classic Civ2", "MGE/FW/CiC".. I'm not great with words and acronyms so I dunno..

Yes, this has been a concern from my side. What is the easiest for people, who are not familiar with the terminology?
I think "MGE and older" might do it, but I'm also unsure.

 

[tootall_2012]

Personally, I like the following format as I find it clearly distinguishes ToT from the other formats, which makes sense since there are important differences between them. But that's just my opinion.

Civilization II Downloads

• Test of Time
  • Scenarios
  • Modpacks
  • Graphics
  • Utility Programs
  • Reference Files
  • Patches & Updates
• Classic Civ2 (MGE & Older)
  • Scenarios
  • Modpacks
  • Graphics
  • Utility Programs
  • Reference Files
  • Patches & Updates
• Maps

 

[The_J]

Thanks for your input . It seems to indeed make sense.

 

[Knighttime]

A few miscellaneous thoughts:

1. Underneath "Civ 2 - Scenarios", there is currently another level of categorization:

• Civ2 - Ancient Scenarios
• Civ2 - Medieval Scenarios
• Civ2 - Renaissance Scenarios
• Civ2 - Industrial Scenarios
• Civ2 - Modern Scenarios
• Civ2 - Sci-Fi Scenarios
• Civ2 - Fantasy Scenarios
• Civ2 - Other Scenarios

I assume this would be preserved/replicated in both the "Test of Time - Scenarios" and "Classic Civ 2 (MGE & Older) - Scenarios" sections, correct?

2. I think I agree with @tootall_2012 that having the top level division be "version" (TOT vs. MGE/older) makes the most sense. But it does mean that to list all Sci-Fi Scenarios (for example) you now have to check two places, separately for each version. I'm OK with that, just want to make sure that doesn't slip by unnoticed.

3. I'm not sure how valuable it is to split "Utility Programs" by TOT vs. MGE/older. If you really wanted to collect the full set of Civ 2 utility programs, in my experience the biggest divide is "16-bit" vs. "32-bit", since that directly affects operating system compatibility. Since TOT and MGE are 32-bit, but FW and older are 16-bit, it might make sense to draw the line in a different place -- or just not split this category at all.

4. Similarly, I agree that Maps probably don't need to be split, but remember that gigamaps (up to 32,767 tiles) are only valid for MGE and TOT... FW and previous versions only supported a max size of 10,922 tiles. That makes this is a little like utility programs -- if you did want to split this section, the dividing line might belong in a different place.

5. Backing up to a higher level for a moment... here's something I've never understood.

From the Civfanatics home page, if you click the Downloads menu link:

... or go to the Forums, and then click the Downloads menu link:

... you go to https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/ and that's fine.
And if you click the Resource Manager link in the Civ2 pulldown menu:

... that takes you to https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/categories/civilization-ii-downloads.78/ which is a subsection of the prior link, and all is well.

But if you click the Downloads link in the Civ2 pulldown menu directly, ignoring the flyout menu:

... you go here: https://www.civfanatics.com/civ2/downloads/ which is not part of the forums at all.
And that page has a different categorization system listed. Is this linking to an entirely different set of files? How is that page (and the content to which it links) being maintained? Why are there two places, that seem unrelated, both attempting to store and present information about Civ2 downloads?

 

[Blake00]

Cheers Knightfall.. was getting worried no one else was going to say anything lol!

1. Yup that's briefly spoken about at the start of the thread and I voted to keep as is and just duplicate these sub category folders between ToT & MGE top level folders. Yeah obviously someone looking for Scifi scenarios will have to check 2 places now but I think that's better than incompatible scenarios mixed in together.

2. Yeah that's certainly my favourite too.

3. Yeah at least with these non-scenario/mod/map sections there's no too much content so a manual split could be done eg The J or a staff member gives us an excel list of the download names and their download area id numbers from a particular section and we just sit there marking ToT or MGE in a column and hand it back to him. I'm happy to put my hand up for that job.

4. Good to have confirmation of maps being cross compatible as I was only about 80% sure on that one haha. Separating MGE content into different classic eras is def going too far but changing some of the names/titles to more accurately reflect their classic era (eg slap a bracketed FW or something on the end like I've been doing lately) could be done. The classic eras issue is sort of what I was talking about above on needing the community to decide on good terminology for the top level folders so people know that 'MGE' actually encompasses all classic pre-ToT Civ2 stuff (Vanilla, CiC, FW, MGE). "MGE & Older" was the best I could think of but someone can probably think of something better that's pro and noob friendly.

5. I believe that's the old CFC downloads area from like 15 years ago. I don't believe it's maintained at all and is just kept as a legacy download area since its content was not transferred to the modern downloads area. The Civ2 folder in the Atomic Network CFC backup zip over on archive.org appears to match this legacy sections files. Ansar created a bunch of downloads in the modern area that link to these old ones and so have I a number of times but there's still plenty not transferred. And yeah you raise a good point that the CFC front page dropdowns really should have properly labeled links to both the legacy Civ2 downloads area and the modern forum one.

.

 

[The_J]

1) yes, seems to be desired like this
2) yes, but I guess most people anyways only have one version, so this should not be a problem .
3) thanks for @Blake00 for the offer
4) okay... that is ugly. Let's see if we find a good solution, although...
5) ...uh... this is maybe outdated. I am on the phone right now, I will check this when I am back from holidays next week. I wasn't aware of this, so thanks for bringing it up .

 

[The_J]

Pinging: @Prof. Garfield, @JPetroski , @CurtSibling , @Fairline , @Civinator @gapetit @Tanelorn @Broken_Erika @McMonkey @Thorvald of Lym, based on the previous post.
I'll let this thread stay open for another week or so, and if there are not any major disagreements, I'll see with the admins that a change can be implemented.

I have not yet looked at @Knighttime 's points from the previous post, but will do the coming weekend.

 

[CurtSibling]

I don't have anything posted on CFC in terms of scenarios, and want to keep it that way, if that is OK.

 

[The_J]

The restructuring doesn't interfere with how anyone uploads or distributes their works, so nothing will change there .
This is only about if people support the split into ToT and MGE, and if anything else would be desired .

 

[Blake00]

Yeah doesn't apply to this project as it's just reorganizing existing downloads (separating ToT and MGE/Classic stuff), not creating new downloads.

But that does apply to my other project where I'm creating new copies/mirrors of old scenarios, so I'll make sure I'll honour your wish and not duplicate your SL scenarios anywhere else.

.

 

[CurtSibling]

Ok, thanks for the clarification, fellas!

 

[Civinator]

The_J, thank you very much for all your efforts in reorganizing the Civ 2 download database at CFC.



To divide the structure in Civ 2 ToT - and MGE (and older) in my eyes makes a lot of sense, as only Civ2 ToT can be used by TOTPP. May be for maps a single category is sufficient and for tools a single category, first with the 32-bit tools and than with the 16-bit tools could be sufficient, too.

 

[rrreese]

I really think that separating all the ToT and MGE/Classic content is a good idea. Over the last year I've been playing a lot of classic mods and its a pain to find the correct version.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

The restructuring doesn't interfere with how anyone uploads or distributes their works, so nothing will change there .
This is only about if people support the split into ToT and MGE, and if anything else would be desired .

Splitting between Test of Time and MGE/Earlier is good enough for scenarios. Pre MGE versions don't run in 64 bit Windows, so anyone going to the extra trouble of running them (probably through virtualization) is going to know exactly what they have, and what the limitations are. And Multiplayer Gold Edition can load all scenarios made in an earlier version.

 

[axx]

@The_J I appreciate your and Blake00's effort & work in this restructuring. Labeling/tagging the scenarios properly depending on the game version is a must.

 

[gapetit]

Thank you very much @The_J , for your contributions and improvements, I believe that the organization of so many wonderful contributions that are preserved benefits us all. Salud y anarkía

 

[The_J]

Glad to hear it makes sense, and that everyone supports it.
I'll ask the admins in the coming days to implement the change, then I'll move everything around, as necessary .