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Downsides of puppeting/annexing cities... numbers?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by IronCrown, Apr 29, 2013.

  1. IronCrown

    IronCrown Black Foe of the World

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    In the game as well as in other guides such as Civ Wiki, I find only very vague information about this, so...

    1. What exactly is the unhappiness penalty of puppet cities and does it change over time?

    The in-game help and other sources just say "they generate a lot less unhappiness than annexed cities", but exactly how much is "a lot less" and does that additional penalty (if any) diminish over time? And if so, how?

    2. How much bigger is the unhappiness for annexing a city? And after a courthouse is built, will it be exactly like a city I founded myself, or will there be a permanent penalty left?

    I'm trying to learn when I can 'afford' to puppet or annex a city without too much try&error...
     
  2. plast

    plast Chieftain

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    I'm not sure how much it is exactly, but I find that annexing a city you are usually better off afterwards in terms on happiness if you immediately buy courthouse+colosseum. So I assume it is equal or close to the effect of a courthouse. It does make social policies a bit more difficult to get though, and some of them gives you more happiness.

    I usually end up annexing cites that has great potential for growth and production and leave the rest as puppets.

    2. I think so, except for the maintenance of the courthouse of course.

    Puppets are on gold focus (remember to switch after annexing) so if you have a puppet city with little production and not too much potential for growth, it would be wise to build trade posts, limit its growth and just rake in the gold.
     
  3. kirbdog

    kirbdog King

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    2. After the courthouse is built, the only differences from a city you founded are the maintenance on the courthouse and the fact that you can raze it.

    1. The unhappiness for a puppet is the same as the unhappiness for any city in your empire: unhappiness per city plus unhappiness per citizen. On a standard map without social policies or wonders to change these numbers, that's 3 per puppet city and 1 per puppet citizen.

    The unhappiness for an annexed city, for the same settings, is 6. Courthouse makes it 3.

    India will get 6 unhappy per puppet and 12 unhappy per annexed city. He also gets a 6 happiness courthouse and instead 0.5 unhappiness per citizen.

    Sidenote: Almost always puppet or raze right away, then annex once the city is done with disorder if you want.
     
  4. IronCrown

    IronCrown Black Foe of the World

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    Ok, thanks :)
     
  5. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    Once you capture a city it will tell you how much unhappiness puppeting and annexing will add to your empire as a tooltip when you hover over the buttons to do those actions.
     
  6. Zaimejs

    Zaimejs Emperor

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    Okay, do you always annex a capital? I usually puppet until it is green and then annex. That's the right thing to do, right?
     
  7. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Normally yes; but only because AI capitals tend to be in very good city sites and/or have wonders.

    But if your one or two turns away from a social policy when it comes out of resistance you may want to complete that first. And of course if your about to start a national wonder you may want to delay the annexation until it completes if the city doesn't have the building.
     
  8. Big J Money

    Big J Money Emperor

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    I've been wondering the same thing and I'm suspicious the information in this thread about puppets is incorrect.

    This thread says it's 1.25 unhappiness per citizen in a puppet

    I'm pretty sure I've seen that I get some extra unhappiness from "occupied cities" even after the disorder period is over, so this would make sense.

    From play, I get the impression that the whole "they generate a lot less unhappiness than annexed cities" is only true before the courthouse is built.

    I'm in the middle of forums searches now and I'm surprised by how unclear the answer is.

    Can anyone confirm this who knows the hard data?
     
  9. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    Also puppets don't increase the need of having buildings in order to built National Wonders, as well as the fact they don't increase Policy Costs but increase Culture Output.
     
  10. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Puppet modifiers (0 is no affect) :
    <Row Name="PUPPET_SCIENCE_MODIFIER">
    <Value>-25</Value>
    </Row>
    <Row Name="PUPPET_CULTURE_MODIFIER">
    <Value>-25</Value>
    </Row>
    <Row Name="PUPPET_GOLD_MODIFIER">
    <Value>0</Value>
    </Row>
    <Row Name="PUPPET_FAITH_MODIFIER">
    <Value>0</Value>

    Happiness modifiers:

    <Row Name="UNHAPPINESS_PER_POPULATION">
    <Value>1</Value>
    </Row>
    <Row Name="UNHAPPINESS_PER_OCCUPIED_POPULATION">
    <Value>1.34</Value>
    </Row>
    <Row Name="UNHAPPINESS_PER_CITY">
    <Value>3</Value>
    </Row>
    <Row Name="UNHAPPINESS_PER_CAPTURED_CITY">
    <Value>5</Value>
    </Row>

    Note that for most of Vanilla, there was a long standing undocumented feature that building a courthouse also removed the normal per city unhappiness in the city, but that was changed very shortly before G&K came out.
     
  11. Big J Money

    Big J Money Emperor

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    So my remaining question is about this:

    UNHAPPINESS_PER_OCCUPIED_POPULATION

    ...and whether it refers to happiness only during resistance, or also after resistance. And also if it refers to puppets and annexed cities, both, or just one.

    Thanks for that data!
     

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