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Dr kossin #19

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by kossin, Jan 22, 2010.

  1. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Welcome to Dr kossin #19.

    Dr is an acronym for Daily Round. Yes, I mean to get in an update every day to the games I will be playing. Of course there might be some days where I can only play a little or not at all, but I will make up for it those other days when I do have extra time on my hands.

    Previously, I had been using maps that had been verified for isolation or semi-isolation. I have terminated that practice as, while a common sort of map, it doesn't entirely reflect the reality of gameplay and was a big hint that there were at least 2 civilizations nearby even if you started on an island by yourself.

    Since I have become more-or-less comfortable on Immortal, the goal of the series is now for me to move even beyond Immortality, into Deity grounds. Hopefully, readers will also be able to pick up a few things here and there to alleviate their own playing.

    You, the reader, can help me achieve this goal by pointing out where I got astray, give suggestions on how to proceed, use complex abstract mathematical analysis to argue, curse at me or anything that you may like. Please note that you must respect the Terms of Service of CFC in any case :)

    You may shadow this game and post it here if you please, but I kindly request that you put it in spoiler tags and that anyone reading the report abstain from using information found there to help me out.

    Should you want more clarification about something I've done, just ask for it and I will try to answer as best as I can.

    Enough talk, on to the game.

    Dr kossin #19​


    Round 1 Settling spree!
    Round 2a Is this really Immortal?
    Round 2b Towards Liberalism
    Round 3 *Cavalry

    Game settings
    Immortal
    Normal Speed
    Continents
    No Events
    No Huts
    BTS 3.19 with BUG 4.2 in CustomAssets and BULL 1.0
    Everything else is normal.

    The leader, this time, is:


    Please refer to the Byzantine Civ IV wiki for more information on this leader/nation.

    The start:


    An interesting start. I'm almost certain moving can provide a much better capital here.
    Some options:
    -1SE on the plains hill for accelerated production. Possibly a resource.
    -NE looks like it could grab a lot of riverside tiles and maybe even a third food resource (I think I see a flood plain to the north). It could be a strategic resource though thus wasted hammers.
    -2N provides the accelerated production of SE but it has only 1 hill for production that we know of
     
  2. BigTime

    BigTime Prince

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    Chapel Hill, NC
    I like 1 NE. That looks like a lot of riverside and perhaps a floodplain, which would make a nice bureau capital. I'd scout warrior 1SE to see if you are losing any seafood. If there is seafood 2SE of warrior settle 1SE. I don't like 2N much, because you lose river access and lose hills.
     
  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I don't know...resources are pretty likely both 1 NE and SE (I would settle SE if I knew there wasn't a resource there). In place won't hurt as we can settler rush if these is a good spot nearby with IMP.
     
  4. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    The levee comes so late in the game, most time it doesn't add that much. River access however is good for early city connection.

    Just going by the 3-resource rule here... 3-2=1 hidden is my guess.

    In place gets a lot of crappy coastal tiles and by the looks of the river system just north it could really be a nice Bureau capital for either commerce/production.
     
  5. BigTime

    BigTime Prince

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    1SE also runs the risk of getting crappy tundra tiles in the BFC, which sucks.
     
  6. raxid

    raxid Warlord

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    Nov 22, 2005
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    in place only gets 4 coastal tiles while SE gets 6 and is at least a 50-50 chance of setting on top of a strat resource!

    frankly i'd settle in place, that river will still be there for your first settler and moving capitals isn't the worst thing.
     
  7. Berkobob

    Berkobob Warlord

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    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    I like 1NE just to purge those crappy coastal tiles from your capitals BFC.
     
  8. Kadazzle

    Kadazzle Emperor

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    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    @ Whoevers at/around/passed 2000BC:

    Spoiler :

    Going Worker -> Warrior -> Warrior -> Settler -> Stonehenge on this map works like a charm. Expanding with SH as an IMP leader is brilliant. It's what I did, and I'm not in a very comfortable lead which I'm sure I'm going to win. The tech path went Hunting -> Animal Husbandry -> Mining -> Agriculture -> Pottery -> Bronze Working -> Writing -> Polytheism -> Aesthetics.

    Easy map if you ask me. Nice room, decent happy resources and nice commerce if you grab far up the floodplain river as a first city other than your capital.
     
  9. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Spoiler :
    Although I have yet to do extensive scouting, it is unfortunate that no horses showed up in the vicinity. Nice that copper popped up right in the city - although a grassland iron mine is not lost. Stonehenge sounds like a good ploy. I hope I can still get it. I'm thinking with fast copper I might want to take out SB with a few quick axe, but he is a bit far for that. I bet anything he has horse over there.
     
  10. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Actually, everyone is using the 4-resource rule these days...

    BTW, I'm in the post-lib era right now. Unfortunately in the middle of my game stupid vista decides to (yet again), do a FORCED reboot (for security reasons), without even asking me confirmation! And hence reboots in the middle of my movements!

    I shall return to it shortly. Though once again I seem to have forgot to build any cottages. Whoopsies. I guess that means sitting bull is going to romp over me now!!!
     
  11. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    @obselete

    I've had that same problem before with the reboots - got me in an xOTM game a while back. To prevent this from happening again, go to Security Center and you can change the settings under Automatic Updating to "Download Updates but let me choose whether to Install them".
     
  12. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    I somehow miss your fog marks:) The key IMHO is that are expected tiles 3N... With my limited fog reading abilities 2n [or 2N1E] looks rather good.
     
  13. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Hmm, almost 7 am here, I'm going to have to go sleep for a bit. I hit a terrible set-back due to a broken game-mechanic with the vassals again, but that's a long story. Needless to say I'm still trying to climb out of it, but it will probably take another 30-min to an hour to get back where I should have been 30 turns ago.
     
  14. Torgny

    Torgny Warlord

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    As someone else suggested before, I would move the Settler NE unless there is some seafood found by the warrior. It is always nice to have the capital by the sea - but there is no seafood.
     
  15. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    I would expect the "all forest" rule to be more apropos here -- the start triggered the "put forests everywhere" bug, so anything without a forest must be an unforestable resource.
     
  16. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    True enough, I forgot to consider that.

    In the case that there is seafood to the east and that we move there, it wouldn't be a complete loss to spawn bronze/iron under the city tile... it'd be worth 3 hammers/turn and couldn't be pillaged. Now moving NE doesn't grant a city tile bonus should a start resource pop but it'd be a gamble on getting a very powerful capital. If there are 9-11 riverside tiles in the BFC NE, is it worth losing 1 horse tile for a giant Bureaucracy bonus?

    That is my feeling as well. Spending 60 hammers on a lighthouse to gain 4 food/turn on those useless coastal tiles is a waste imho.

    Hehe, where'd that 4-resource rule come from :p
    I hope SB isn't in the game for spoiler's sake...

    I might start using the fog markers again. It's hard to tell without opening the save and by just looking at the screenshot.

    2N does look good. It could provide an extra flood plain, assuming there is more than one but might also snag and hit some desert (not that it'll matter anytime soon). I only can tell of 1 hill for production by moving there however.

    2N1E could gain 2 flood plains but it loses the deer. Now, that's certainly not a tragedy (unless a forest grows on it, then it becomes decent) but there would be only a few city spots able to use it and those could be tundra-ridden.

    I will move the capital SE if there's a fish. Crabs or Clams are unjustified I think as there is only 1 tile that could have a seafood in the BFC there.

    Yea... I need to go dig some information on the starting BFC algorithm. Soirana showed me a BFC where copper spawned riverside when I had read once that it wasn't possible. Need to get my facts updated.

    EDIT: Here it is.
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=252429
     
  17. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    I moved the warrior SE as suggested.


    That eliminates settling SE from the equation in my book.

    Looking at the start algorithm, since seafood wasn't added, we can guess the SE or NE is a strategic resource. Copper/Iron/Horses notably.
    Is NE worth risking settling on top of 2 or 3 lost hammers/turn?

    Then again, 2N loses the riverside plains hill which could be a 6 hammers tile with iron/bronze. It also isn't easily claimable with another city as food looks scarce in that area.
     
  18. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    In place for a production cap or NE for a better overall one sound fine.
     
  19. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    since we done with fog reading could you explain what do you not like in place. I like moving settlers but here i would have plopped in place.
     
  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Start ----> Finish (1938 AD)

    Spoiler :


    The religious situation was a little tense with 2 buddhists 2 hindus. I stayed away from religion. I skipped aesthetics as straight alpha got the trades here. Won lib ~800 AD for nationalism, got to rifles reasonably early but had trouble coming up with production...well except for the draft.



    SB was a bit of a slog thanks to super longbows. But not TOO much of a slog.



    The other hindu heathen was hannibal (I'd decided to side w/ buddhists).

    Montezuma declared on charlie, and I got a weird offer:



    This is after I bribed monty out of it, so I could get a non-war vassal w/o a DoW. Hannibal mysteriously still lacked rifles, despite having grenadiers/cannons. But, at this point globe + being able to draft from all of SB's cities made things uglier:







    From there, I decided to follow my lesson from last time: convert to espionage to get tech. Focused on obvious tech leader cyrus. I got a lot of bull@#$%, like 5-6 consecutive 58% chances failing in a row. 4 different times. But I was huge and I had hammers. Also, although I didn't have buddhist holy city cyrus was FR, so I got -15% anyway. On top of that, I moved my SP palace as close as I could. This allowed for fun abuse like stealing fusion for <5000 :espionage:. I stole up to parity, which included the likes of fission, advanced flight, fascism, etc. Cyrus got pissy over -20 spies caught or some BS but it didn't matter. I put MP together, monty declared on me, and I proceeded to nuke/para his sorry butt. He had capped shaka, but after sufficient irradiation it didn't matter:



    Monty had a lot of reasonably advanced units (even gunships), but a lot of them were nuked in transports along with his entire navy, and he just couldn't handle nukedropping.



    Shaka only needed to lose 1 city after monty gave up to see the light.



    Hit end turn a few times for









    I had a minimalist navy. Probably ~10 transports, but very little of anything else. Once I had my beachhead, rebase tac nukes took care of the rest. Naval initiative was easy with a jet fighter + a sub with 3 tac nukes. Monty/shaka never got fission. Thanks to Cyrus, I ended the game with fusion, composites, and an undisputed tech lead (monty traded me refrigeration after capping, which cyrus didn't have).

    I was getting 1000+ :espionage: at 0% even after I had to put culture up while defying a resolution or two. In other words, at 0%, I could burn a ship part every 3rd turn or steal the equivalent in fusion roughly every 4th turn. Cyrus was still a way from culture or space, but he had no shot at those w/ all the EP rape :lol:.

     

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