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Dr kossin #21 (Deity)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by kossin, Jan 31, 2010.

  1. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
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    Canada
    re-Welcome to Dr kossin #21.

    Dr is an acronym for Daily Round. Yes, I mean to get in an update every day to the games I will be playing. Of course there might be some days where I can only play a little or not at all, but I will make up for it those other days when I do have extra time on my hands.

    After what I'd dare call a successful showing on Immortal level (out of 20 games played, 18W/2L with 1L due to an unfortunate RNG roll), I've decided to up the ante and bump the difficulty to Deity.

    I'm not at the point where I can win every game thrown at me on Deity level. I probably can't even win every game thrown at me on Immortal but it is getting a bit boring. My goal is now to achieve competitive skills on this level which should hopefully help me improve more. Maybe I should change the series name to DDR now (Deity Daily Round :lol:).

    You, the reader, can help me achieve this goal by pointing out where I got astray, give suggestions on how to proceed, use complex abstract mathematical analysis to argue, curse at me or anything that you may like. Please note that you must respect the Terms of Service of CFC in any case :)

    You may shadow this game and post it here if you please, but I kindly request that you put it in spoiler tags and that anyone reading the report abstain from using information found there to help me out.

    Should you want more clarification about something I've done, just ask for it and I will try to answer as best as I can.

    Enough talk, on to the game.

    Dr kossin #21​


    Round 0 Settling
    Round 1 On your marks, get ready, settle!
    Round 2 Questionable decisions
    Round 3 Towards Liberalism
    Round 4 War!
    Round 5 War and Peace

    Game settings
    Deity
    Normal Speed
    Fractal
    No Events
    No Huts
    BTS 3.19 with BUG 4.2 in CustomAssets and BULL 1.0
    Everything else is normal.

    I've played a few turns (<50) with the map to make sure it is playable for my meager Deity success rate.

    The leader, this time, is:


    Please refer to the Aztec Civ IV wiki for more information on this leader/nation.

    The start:


    A fine start. The plains hill under the settler is a good bonus. There is a 5 flood plains for either cottaging or a good food surplus to work all the hills in the BFC.
    Elephants suggest the possibility of early war, especially given our UB which encourages whipping a lot.

    I'll (re-)start playing tomorrow evening, which should give about 24 hours for whatever needs discussion.

    Techpath: Agriculture->AH->Mining->BW seems reasonable although Archery may be required for defense against barbarians.
     
  2. raxid

    raxid Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
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    218
    glad to see you're taking the plunge.

    are we in store for shorter, more detailed rounds? i'd certainly be interested in that, and it'd probably only help?
     
  3. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    5,594
    Settle in place. This looks like a solid research and production capital. I'd probably cottage the floodplains rather than farm them. Other cities should get the farms.
     
  4. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Probably shorter rounds yes: I need more time to play on Deity (check trade screens every turn etc.) and I'll probably need help now! Whereas on Immortal it had more or less become: what would you like to see?

    Yea, that's what I was thinking. Those hills will make nice windmills and production should be good even then (more so with a levee).
     
  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Early war on deity is quite rare. I've seen it against cupcakes though.
     
  6. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    Gone fishing for the summer
    I'd farm those floodplains. You have lots of hills to work and no other food source (other than hill sheep) in sight. If the fog reveals corn, I'd be more inclined to cottage the FP.
     
  7. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    ^ I think the lone unrevealed tile is a food source ... at least I hope. I've never seen a capital with just a silly hilly sheep as its only food source.

    My idea was to use the cottages for a supercity, although there are other ways to get research.
     
  8. Kadazzle

    Kadazzle Emperor

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    Toronto, Canada
    I won this in the 1800s. If you avoid an early DoW, you should be good.
     
  9. Leventis

    Leventis Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
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    262
    I'd farm this city. Potentially 7 mines here, and unlikely you'll get another food in the fog.
     
  10. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    Dec 21, 2007
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    1,711
    A few farms (approximately 2) can go a long way with this capital.

    But, on the other hand, the UB allows for more frequent whipping than usual...which allows you have a few more farms than normal.

    So, my recommendation is from 2-4 farms, and the rest cottages.
     
  11. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Round 0

    After moving the settler, there is an interesting option seen but it does not outweigh settling in place, which I did:
    Spoiler :
    First of all there is a pig resource in the BFC. Settling the gold in the BFC is possible (requires 2 turns) but it gives 2 turns of no-production, lose all flood plains, lose the plains hill bonus, etc. there is no reason a second city cannot be settled there instead.


    A quick analysis of the city.
    Spoiler :
    We have -9 :food: to use every hill (assuming mines) and the Ivory. There is also 2 :yuck: caused by the flood plains.

    Positively, the city has +13 :food: from every flood plain, the city tile, sheep and pig. The 2 :health: from the river also helps to lessen the flood plains unhealthiness. (2 more from pigs/sheep)


    With Ivory and gold, early happy cap seems to be 7 (4 default +1 Palace+ 1gold +1 Ivory) meaning we want to work the 7 best tiles. For the moment, 4~5 tiles are more likely to be used as time is also an issue.
    Pig-sheep are undoubtedly the 2 stronger tiles, yielding 6/0/0 [:food:/:hammers:/:commerce:]and 4/1/1. There are 5 flood plains (3/0/1 basis) available for either cottages or farms.

    So far, working pigs/sheep at size 2 gives +8 food surplus which is quite nice. Working farmed flood plains equals output from a mined hill or the Ivory tile - if we don't take whipping into account - when producing a worker or settler, which will be the immediate goal of our capital. There are also alternative early goals for our capital: protection against barbarians and early research namely. The first requires use of the whip or hammers and the second can be achieved by many ways.

    Farming flood plains requires a lot of worker turns (7) while cottaging (5) and mining (4+1 for moving).

    Going all-out farms will require a lot of worker turns when there aren't many to spare.

    Since most hills are covered by forests, mines will require bronze working. A good balance would be:
    -pig
    -sheep
    -ivory
    -1 of (mine or farmed flood plain)


    Technology.
    Spoiler :


    Agriculture is 10 turns, Animal Husbandry 13 (the worker would get to the pig on the same turn AH is researched: t12 completes -> move on forest 1E; t13 -> AH in start improving pig).

    Agriculture first will reduce Animal Husbandry research time to 11 turns. (it would be gotten on t21. The worker on t12 would farm a flood plain for 7 turns (t18), t19 1 turn of camp on ivory, t20 move on forest, t21 start the pasture. Using this approach, the capital will grow to size 2 on turn 19 and reach size 3 by the time the pig is completed (t24) with 3 more turns until size 4.

    OTOH, AH first give growth to size 2 at t18, size 3 at t22, etc.

    This seems to show AH first will be a bit faster for development. This is important because we want to get a settler to the gold tile ASAP to get a boost on research. It will also reveal horses which is important to take care of barbarians.

    Agriculture is also one of the requirements (Fishing being the other) with The Wheel for Pottery.

    While we don't know if there will be food near the gold tile, we can always borrow the pig tile from the capital so that it won't be completely uni-dimensional (commerce) and be able to help with worker production.

    I *think* AH first wins out here as getting the gold online sooner will skew the results heavily toward that opening.
     
  12. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    I believe there is a tradeoff here. A farmed flood plains provides 4F1C, and a pastured Pig provides 6F. Obviously, the Pig is the better tile, but if your goal is to work the Gold sooner for more commerce, you lose some of that commerce by the following:

    1) the lack of bonus to Animal Husbandry

    2) the loss of 1C during the growth of the capital


    Having 1) results in a loss of about 20-25 beakers, and having 2) results in a loss of about (7 beakers)*. Additionally, settling the 2nd city sooner results in the loss of some beakers (maybe about 4 beakers).

    *I'm not sure if this is exact...going AH first also allows you to work the Pig and the Sheep, in which case the Sheep will bring in extra commerce. You will also need to consider what the worker does after pasturing the Pig, in the case of AH-first. By the looks of the map, it takes 3 turns just to move the worker from the Pig to the Sheep. If you try to farm a flood plains after pasturing the Pig, on the other hand, there will be some delay in waiting for Agriculture.

    On the positive side, settling the Gold city earlier allows the Gold to be worked sooner, at the expense of taking the Pig away from the capital. How many turns earlier will the Gold be worked? Maybe 2 turns, according to your estimates. If that is so, then you gain about 14 beakers by working the Gold earlier. But this appears to be less than the number of beakers you lose from the above factors.

    On the other hand, going for AH first allows you to settle your 2nd city elsewhere, not necessarily near the Gold. In that case, you may be aiming to use the 2nd city as an additional source of production. Or more importantly, there is some key location that needs to be blocked. Both of these alternate options are unclear at the moment.
     
  13. Inso

    Inso Warlord

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    I'm liking this detailed analysis here, should help to pick up a few things that I might not have thought of before. Shall be following with interest :)
     
  14. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Some tough choices. I think AH first wins out. Especially if you're only thinking early game settler pump, working pigs/sheep/ivory/hill (especially 1N which looks like it might end up as a resource) will be fine, meaning you might be able to delay agri for a little.
     
  15. oranje willem

    oranje willem Prince

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    Spoiler :

    I went good untill boudica declared me, 4 city defender I fortified archers with walls and one culture pop all 4 lost against a stack of 7, even with bettter luck I'd be dead (I have no idea how I should have prevented this DoW, I had her religion even and this is 600 BC)
     
  16. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Yes. Ag first is the "safe" choice and AH first is the gamble in my opinion (assumes there is a good spot with cattle resources or horses nearby).

    Working the gold is worth 0/3/7 each turn. Getting the city up earlier means increased maintenance since The Wheel is a few techs away.

    I could bank beakers on the first turn and move the scout on the gold to see the surroundings. Another AH resource would suggest AH first while a grain resource would suggest Ag>AH instead.

    Assuming no horses are nearby, aggressive warriors could take care of early barbs to some extent meaning TW could come directly after Mining (Ag>AH>Mining>TW) to add 2 more commerce. Should horses show up, the incentive for TW is pretty clear as researching Archery becomes more or less unnecessary this early. Otherwise, Archery after Mining becomes important as barbs will start entering borders (unless AIs are close by or we get lucky with warriors). This could look like Ag>AH>mining>Archery>TW>BW>Pottery but I think I am getting too far ahead for turn 0.

    Ag first would do well with 2 workers earlier than later I think.

    Delaying the pigs tile is not a good idea as it is clearly the best tile (and by a fair margin). I think hooking up the gold earlier will also pay off, albeit at the expense of the capital somewhat. Research will be accelerated once the gold is hooked up whatever happens.

    I'll bank beakers on the first turn to see if anything shows up.
     
  17. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Round 1

    Coming tomorrow! It's late and I need to get to bed.

    I actually played a verrrrry long segment. I'll break it off in smaller segments over a few days I think.
    I've got autosaves from every turn as well which should help my memory and help with the fact that I didn't take that many screenshots...
     
  18. Berkobob

    Berkobob Warlord

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    awesome. fun leader, lets hope for a fun map :)
     
  19. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    i'd play hunting>AH. Don't see any need for early agriculture...
     
  20. Julian Delphiki

    Julian Delphiki Anton's key

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    Helsinki, Funland
    Aztecs start with hunting..
     

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