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Dr kossin #22

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by kossin, Feb 6, 2010.

  1. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Welcome to Dr kossin #22.

    Dr is an acronym for Daily Round. Yes, I mean to get in an update every day to the games I will be playing. Of course there might be some days where I can only play a little or not at all, but I will make up for it those other days when I do have extra time on my hands.

    Since the 21st edition of this series, the difficulty level has been cranked all the way up to Deity. I'm not at the point where I can win every game thrown at me on Deity level... I probably can't even win every game thrown at me on Immortal but it is getting a bit boring. My goal is now to achieve competitive skills on this level which should hopefully help me improve more.

    You, the reader, can help me achieve this goal by pointing out where I got astray, give suggestions on how to proceed, use complex abstract mathematical analysis to argue, curse at me or anything that you may like. Please note that you must respect the Terms of Service of CFC in any case :)

    You may shadow this game and post it here if you please, but I kindly request that you put it in spoiler tags and that anyone reading the report abstain from using information found there to help me out.

    Should you want more clarification about something I've done, just ask for it and I will try to answer as best as I can.

    Enough talk, on to the game.

    Dr kossin #22​


    Round 1 The Fast, The Mean and The Ugly
    Round 2a There's bound to be some hatin'
    Round 2b Peace 'n love baby!
    Round 3a Time to gamble
    Round 3b Gambling and losing (tiles)

    Game settings
    Deity
    Normal Speed
    Fractal
    No Events
    No Huts
    BTS 3.19 with BUG 4.2 in CustomAssets and BULL 1.0
    Everything else is normal.

    A special thanks to Wen123 who provided the map.

    The leader, this time, is:


    Please refer to the Maya Civ IV wiki for more information on this leader/nation.

    The start:


    Appears like a normal start. Religion first would be an option here with the Financial Oasis but seeing as it's Deity, I should probably think of something more clever than that... (although you never know, it could end up being the only religion on the continent - but at the cost of expansion and growth).

    The warrior doesn't appear that he can be of any help in revealing hidden tiles in the BFC.

    There is a hidden river that starts 3N of the settler (you can just see the start at the edge of the fog) and a forested plains hill just below it. Moving there could be an option but we'd give up the Oasis, wine and whatever is in those 2 unforested tiles in the BFC (SSW and SWW of the settler).

    I think settling in place is a safe choice assuming we'll get a bone thrown our way with the map random generator. The warrior meanwhile could go north to investigate the river system or start circling the capital S or E.

    Worker first is a good option here as Expansive means he'll be out faster thanks to the 3:hammers: forested plains hill. The first 5 turns will be spent working the Oasis which will yield an extra 15 :commerce:->:science: towards early techs.

    Agriculture is the first tech here. Then either BW or whatever's required to use what the BFC gives us.

    BW+Hunting will give us the ability to build Holkans regardless of having Copper or not so Archery looks like a dead end but we'll see.

    This doesn't look like a cottage city at all but Pottery should be a priority regardless to get those cheap granaries up.
     
  2. BigTime

    BigTime Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
    Messages:
    556
    Location:
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Unless the warrior reveals something by moving 1 NW, settling in place seems fine. An oasis is a good early game tile to work, being essentially a floodplain with an extra commerce on it. There must be another resource 2SE or 1S2W of the settler unless the warrior reveals a resource 1 NW. It's a fine capital, not too bad or too good.

    Religion first would be a gamble, and if you miss it you might be in trouble. I don't know what to say on that, I'd rather play it safe and go AG-BW.
     
  3. Aaroc

    Aaroc Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2010
    Messages:
    104
    I think it's a nice starting point. Better for production than anything else though, I think. With just what you've got going there you can work the Corn, oasis, and 4 mined grassland hill (more once civil service come in and your corn becomes irrigated). that's not even counting what else may be revealed to the SW.

    Personally, I would shoot for Buddhism. with that three commerce tile in the starting workable area of the capitol, and what's it? a 6 turn detour? You can still have founded Buddhism and researched agriculture before the first worker is built. If not for the fact that this is Deity, and I'm a Nooble, I'd attempt to shadow this game. Hell, maybe I will anyway.

    Edit: Okay, so its a 9 turn detour. Are techs more expensive on Deity than on Noble? I'm pretty sure on the Monty game I played recently I was able to research meditation in 8 turns while working an unimproved FP tile, which was only one extra commerce.
     
  4. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,062
    Location:
    Gone fishing for the summer
    Techs cost about 20-30% more on deity - I don't remember the exact number.

    I'd just settle in place - financial oasis is a pretty good starting tile, although it doesn't take advantage of an expansive worker. Early BW will help your expansion though, as you'll probably want a second worker pretty early to help chop forests.
     
  5. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Round 1

    I settled in place and got quite a surprise!
    Spoiler :
    A three corn capital? Really?? [party]



    Started on a worker and sent the warrior to investigate the river system north.

    However, the good news kinda stopped there.
    1.
    Spoiler :
    A very good rexxer shows up on turn 5... ugh

    2.
    Spoiler :
    An unfriendly neighbor as well.

    3.
    Spoiler :
    Cathy basically settled her second city in my face!

    4.
    Spoiler :
    Ang Ragnar is pretty close by too!

    5.We're way up north and flanked against the coast to the east.

    After Agriculture I researched Bronze Working to accelerate expansion.

    Some good news:
    Spoiler :
    Punching Bull is again in the game... hopefully he'll draw the punches again.


    I grew to size 4 while farming the corns and then 2-whipped a settler to get here just before Ragnar.
    Spoiler :



    Unfortunately he would settle right above me before my third settler could get in place (chopped/whipped)... moreover you can see him mining Iron.
    Spoiler :


    I followed his lead and settled on top of him a bit later. Catherine was settling everywhere as she usually does and I couldn't get a settler to grab the cows to the north west.

    Then Ragnar went weird and did me a real favour:
    Spoiler :


    Of course, he went into war mode soon enough...
    Spoiler :


    I spotted a settler party of Catherine's aiming at the tip of the continent.
    Spoiler :


    Unfortunately for her I have had a settler ready to settle the area for several turns already.
    Spoiler :


    Now this is interesting...
    Spoiler :
    975BC and no metal Cathy? I think I might be able to expand through her...


    I stopped here as the initial phase has come to an end.

    Land
    Spoiler :

    Unfortunately I hadn't noticed the Fish to the east of the copper so it is lost. It was kind of awkward to settle in any case.



    Techs
    Spoiler :


    Diplomacy
    Spoiler :


    Pottery was a real helper here, there wasn't much commerce to be had and getting an instant 3 from a riverside cottage was a big boost.
    Sitting Bull has Writing but I haven't opened borders in case Ragnar is after him.

    I think I'm not Ragnar's DoW target, as he'd be stacking units in Roskilde but there are only 2 archers there atm. Sitting Bull being his worst enemy might have something to do with it too.

    If he DoWs, chances are Cathy will backstab me which could hurt as I have a non-existent army atm. I am researching Hunting atm so Holkans should take care of that side of things. That will also grant me 2 happy resources for much needed growth.

    I think I am either screwed or in a decent position with 6 cities. Next round will tell...
     
  6. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    5,594
    :eek: Great capital, but you really got the short end of the stick on this continent. Ragnar's target is almost certainly going to be you. Isn't he normall pleased with Catherine?

    Better get the army ready ....
     
  7. Aaroc

    Aaroc Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2010
    Messages:
    104
    Yeah. When I attempted this, I pretty much got settled on top of and stifled almost immediately. I was grateful that I'd researched Meditation first, for some cultural pressure on Catherine, but because of that I was getting settlers out way too slow. I quit pretty early. I obviously need to work my way up to deity instead of just trying out a game O_o...
     
  8. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Location:
    Canada
    Technically, SB was a valid target when he went into war mode (under the power limit and border tension meaning land target). Moreover, being his worst enemy means odds are higher he is his target. Lastly, I didn't point it out in the round but he produced an Axe from Roskilde at one point and moved it south, presumably in SB's direction.

    Now that doesn't mean I'm not going to get Axes up for myself, quite on the contrary I need some in case a dagger comes up or if I see an opportunity to backstab on my own - which is doubtful however.

    Catherine is indeed Pleased at Ragnar, but he is only Cautious with her so I could potentially take advantage of that.
     
  9. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

    Joined:
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    5,594
    Really? My bad, I thought Sitting Bull was behind Catherine and not touching Ragnar.
     
  10. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Canada
    Round 2a

    Early in the round, Ragnar researched Writing allowing me to Open Borders with him.
    Spoiler :


    A scouting worker revealed he wasn't massing any troops in my vicinity so it looked like I was safe.

    Once Cathy's settler was in range, I finally settled the northern city.
    Spoiler :


    Sure enough, Ragnar declared war on Sitting Bull. Hurray!
    Spoiler :


    A few turns later I researched Writing myself and opened borders with Cathy and made this trade:
    Spoiler :


    However, I wasn't out of trouble just then:
    Spoiler :
    Not looking too good... I had a worker scout her 2 closest cities but couldn't see any military buildup over there???


    Eventually, Cathy founded Confucianism and it would spread to Mutal.
    Spoiler :




    A few turns after making peace with Sitting Bull, Ragnar is back at it.
    Spoiler :
    Uh uh... me or Cathy and he's up to Pleased with her now.


    I had a few turns to make a military buildup.
    Spoiler :


    On the same turn, I finished Alphabet and started trading.
    Spoiler :


    I also begged Sailing from her once she got to Pleased and she agreed!


    At first Ragnar was sending a few spears and exiting from my culture. Until his stack from the Sitting Bull war showed up.
    Spoiler :


    I waited to see where it was heading -> Birka, the city he gifted to me and whipped Walls over there while massing everything I had in the city.
    Spoiler :

    20vs14 - I'd say my odds are good.



    Without siege, he attacked next turn and...
    Spoiler :
    2 losses and 17 wins! Both losses were <30% odds too.


    I get a few trades going in the meantime...
    Spoiler :


    Thinking I might ninja a city from him...



    Then Sitting Bull comes by and screws with my binary research. I agreed but thinking back I should have just flushed him, he's far and can't get to me (behind Ragnar).
    Spoiler :


    Ragnar was no slouch and kept sending units my way.
    Spoiler :


    Of course he still thinks he's winning the war despite the overwhelming kill ratio in my favor.

    Out of curiosity, I send my scouting worker south a bit and finally spot Cathy's SoD :eek:
    Spoiler :


    I've got three turns to prepare for that???
    Spoiler :


    So I give a tech to Ragnar for peace in order to send troops over at Mutal. Hopefully he'll go bother Sitting Bull before redeclaring war against me.
    Spoiler :


    Once the peace treaty is over, Cathy starts moving towards Mutal. I've been whipping Elephants and catapults as well as several Holkans as she has a lot of mounted units.
    Spoiler :
    That's one big stack.


    To be continued...
     
  11. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Location:
    UK
    Its like a good book you dont want to put down. lol

    With those neighbours and this level to be expected.
     
  12. Fei Kelei

    Fei Kelei Pleased

    Joined:
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    319
    Location:
    London
    Wow, the move to Deity has really breathed new life into this series. I was still following it before, but now it's much more interesting. Good luck against Cathy.
     
  13. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Location:
    Canada
    Nothing like a good cliffhanger, right? Right??

    Well it's certainly more fun but it's more work too. I'll post the second part in a while.
     
  14. mmdmmd

    mmdmmd Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2009
    Messages:
    13
    What a cliffhanger!!

    I love your series. Thank you very much.
     
  15. goodolarchie

    goodolarchie Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    282
    Heh, looks like you got a real reversal of fortune compared to Boudica/Lincoln last game. Ragnar and Cathy are so damn annoying, pity you couldn't pit them against one another.
     
  16. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Canada
    Round 2b

    Continuing from last round...

    Cathy is knocking on the door.
    Spoiler :


    She doesn't have that many catapults but seeing Crossbows is not good.

    Inevitably this happens:
    Spoiler :

    omg hax she agreed! - I actually reloaded to take the screenshots as I didn't expect it to work!



    Now I figure I have 10 turns to build some more units but just wait a second...
    Spoiler :
    Someone is trigger happy...

    Ragnar declared war on SB the same turn but I took the screenshot about 2 seconds too soon.


    So what's an opportunistic person to do?
    Spoiler :
    Get brownie points!


    I also made some gifts to Ragnar to bump up my relations with him.
    Spoiler :


    Being that Hereditary Rule is Ragnar's and Cathy's favorite civic, I made that a priority.

    After that I went for Civil Service. I had to trade it relatively soon as Ragnar got it not long after me and he was Friendly with Cathy.
    Spoiler :


    I researched Philosophy and Paper afterwards and stopped the round.
    Spoiler :




    Top 5 cities and wonders
    Spoiler :
    They're going by pretty fast. Sankore was built before I had Paper.


    Diplomacy - the only thing going well amazingly.
    Spoiler :


    I think my biggest mistake of the round is on the techpath. For one, I researched Poly+Monotheism without using them. Furthermore I researched Compass for trading purposes at one point but Cathy wound up getting it on the same turn as I did. This unfortunately blocks the Liberalism bulb :cry:.

    Seeing the Wonder completion dates, I'm taking a wild guess and saying I won't be first to Liberalism. It might have been possible with a second bulb but now it doesn't look too good.

    Moreover, my position doesn't look that great either. Unless I can manage to get some pretty good trades to get a tech edge on, say Ragnar, I don't think I can get any more expansion going on here. Bulbs might get me closer to canons but I'd still be at risk as Ragnar could bribe Cathy to war.

    One alternative is to try Culture! I've only got 1 religion but I have a pretty decent GP farm in Mutal with its 3 corns and some mature cottages elsewhere. In that case, I might be able to get a Defensive Pact going with Catherine and/or Ragnar to potentially be safe from oversea AIs...

    In any case, I'd say this is a pretty rough map (for my skill level - I'd be ready to wager the top-tier players here could walk it). A few different RNG rolls could alter the game considerably as well.
     
  17. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    This map is definitely a tough one. It's not difficult to pull a successful war later. You can DOW Ragnar by the time Cathy in war mode or beg for 10 turns of forced peace. Or a war supported by bombers is the safest way to go.
     
  18. bestsss

    bestsss Emperor

    Joined:
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    1,955
    Since the game is past the point
    I played till 1AD, rushed Cathy (no copper) who found the Buddhism (went into spread missions) which is the only one religion around. Plus, she had so many chariots (more than the archers for sure), a true moron. Settled cow/copper 1st.
    There is plenty of land and FIN/EXP, should not be very difficult.

    Ragnar demanded mysticism and went into conflict w/ sitting bull.
     
  19. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Location:
    Canada
    This could work, provided I can stay in the trade loop. With the size Cathy is now (and assuming she grows bigger), she'll tech pretty fast. Having no horses is another stick in my wheel as it means a long war.

    Definitely a better opening. Sadly I didn't notice she had no copper when I discovered BW (and there was no way to know she had not hooked it up already) and didn't want to gamble the game on that assumption.
    The RNG really changes the game sometimes.
     
  20. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

    Joined:
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    I think the map is tough too. A war with bombers might be too late because I think you have to research quite a bit of techs. Try beelining to riflemen and drafting maybe 20-30? If I were playing I'd probably hit Catherine first (if possible) or Ragnar if Catherine proves to be too strong.
     

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