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Dr kossin #27

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by kossin, Mar 10, 2010.

  1. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Welcome to Dr kossin #27.

    Dr is an acronym for Daily Round. Yes, I mean to get in an update every day to the games I will be playing. Of course there might be some days where I can only play a little or not at all, but I will make up for it those other days when I do have extra time on my hands.

    Since the 21st edition of this series, the difficulty level has been cranked all the way up to Deity. I'm not at the point where I can win every game thrown at me on Deity level... I probably can't even win every game thrown at me on Immortal but it is getting a bit boring. My goal is now to achieve competitive skills on this level which should hopefully help me improve more.

    You, the reader, can help me achieve this goal by pointing out where I got astray, give suggestions on how to proceed, use complex abstract mathematical analysis to argue, curse at me or anything that you may like. Please note that you must respect the Terms of Service of CFC in any case :)

    You may shadow this game and post it here if you please, but I kindly request that you put it in spoiler tags and that anyone reading the report abstain from using information found there to help me out.

    Should you want more clarification about something I've done, just ask for it and I will try to answer as best as I can.

    Enough talk, on to the game.

    Dr kossin #27​


    Round 1 Slow opening
    Round 2 BoxedCultured in
    Round 3 Sheer AI Stupidity
    Round 4a The end of a war
    Round 4b The end of another war

    Game settings
    Deity
    Normal Speed
    Fractal
    No Events
    No Huts
    BTS 3.19 with BUG 4.3 in CustomAssets and BULL 1.1
    Everything else is normal.

    A special thanks to lymond who provided the map.

    The leader, this time, is:


    Please refer to the Japan Civ IV wiki for more information on this leader/nation.

    The start:


    Looks like a good start, too bad those are only clams however. There also appears to be a flood plain NNE of the settler. This looks like a good hybrid city, with food for specialists and plenty of river tiles for cottages. Unfortunately coastal starts are usually a bit slower since workboats take a while to produce and are subsequently lost. It might be interesting to go worker first with Ag>Mining>NW. The worker won't have any idle turns as Toku starts with The Wheel but there'll be a bunch of unimproved tiles for a while. I think settling first will give a better idea of how feasible that can be.
    With what appears to be several hills with forests/jungles, aggressive warriors should be able to handle barbs but we'll see I suppose. Archery is a bit of a dead end and costs a bunch of beakers initially. All those forests can be used for perhaps a wonder or otherwise expansion.

    SIP is pretty obvious I think but wb first of worker first hmm...
     
  2. Riot

    Riot Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Workboat! Need commerce!
     
  3. Emperor Peter

    Emperor Peter Warlord

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    Aug 11, 2008
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    Location:
    Belgium (GMT+1)
    The corn is not irrigated so working clams is better. Worker after boat. Research Mining>BW
     
  4. Daedal

    Daedal Prince

    Joined:
    May 31, 2007
    Messages:
    355
    Location:
    trapped in your monitor
    Boat first, then worker. Question is, what then? More boats? How quick do you want to get those clams boated up?
     
  5. hou jing

    hou jing Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2007
    Messages:
    62

    If you go worker after boat, do you then go boat> settler? I'm guessing the city is at Pop 2 when the first boat is built.
     
  6. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,711
    I can understand your reluctance to go for Archery, with the No Huts setting. Since I play with huts on, the extra investment put into Archery is usually inexpensive compared to the benefit it provides.

    When you get your 2nd city, barbarian attacks will be more fierce, so you will need to be ready to defend your cities by then. In the interest of avoiding the situation of settling two defenseless cities, you may want to focus on building up your seafood resources now so that when the territory has been mapped completely, you can expand very quickly with good troops to protect your cities.
     
  7. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2009
    Messages:
    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Archery can be a choice but it's too early to say.

    If I play this map, I'll start with Mining=>BW and Fish boat=>Worker. The first worker will be built at the same time when BW is finished. Then chop one more fish boat or two (one for clam another for scouting if the birth place is isolated.). Chop the first settler when cap is 4 pop.

    If the map is crowed, Hunting=>Archery is probably not needed. If neighbors are far away, take Archery and in this case Agriculture is too good to skip.
     
  8. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,711
    I agree with this plan. There are too many forests near the capital to delay BW. But every additional forest means one more tile that cannot be a Horse or Copper...which means greater likelihood that you will need Archery to defend your cities.
     
  9. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
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    Location:
    Dreamtime
    Basically you need at least to see city cross to decide. Maybe he got 3pigs in fog:).

    Overall i'd go worker first. Close call but not having plain hill forest makes boat first a bit worse. [Unririgated corn and clams, imo, are pretty equal and fog shows unforested hills to be improved on mining.]

    But that is just me. I am in general afraid to start with boats as these often cause delay in development...
     
  10. GreenShift84

    GreenShift84 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 6, 2009
    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    At my desk
    I'm glad to see this opening being supported here. I used the exact same one in the current EC Willem game, but also whipped the settler after chops. It felt pretty strong, so I'd say go for it.
     
  11. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2009
    Messages:
    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    My BTS doesn't work at the moment so I can't try the game. According to what we can see now:

    1) If Agri=>Mining=>BW and Worker=>Workboat. t15 Worker. t22 cap = 2 pop.
    2) If Mining=>Bw and Workboat=>Worker. t11 cap=2pop. t13 Workboat. t25 Worker.

    Considering in Option 2 we can chop trees immediately with the first worker, in fact Option 2 is no worse in production and much better in commerce. (got one clam and the second in t29) 2 commerce from clams is crucial for Toku I reckon.

    Moreover, in this kind of environment (much jungle), the biggest limit to expansion is usually Bar rather than hammers. To gain 2 commerce from clam and to beeline Archery is worth trying. (It depends how far they neighbors are as well of course)
     
  12. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
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    Location:
    Toronto
    These are the hardest to determine. If it were irrigated/riverside corn, then worker first is obvious. But the wb-first crowd is tough to manage. You'd work the 1/2 while building the wb, right?
     
  13. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Location:
    Dijon, France
    1/2 means the tile with 1F2H?

    If building workboat as the first unit, there are several choices. My principle is that the cap should grow to 2 pop when finish the boat. Options are:

    1) Work on 2/1 tile till pop 2, t11 pop=2. Then two pops work on 1/2. t13 Workboat .
    2) Work on 3/0 tile t6, t7 work on 1/2. t8 pop = 2. Then two pops work on 1/2. t12 Workboat.

    The micro depends on the tiles as well.
     
  14. Fei Kelei

    Fei Kelei Pleased

    Joined:
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    Location:
    London
    I'm interested in those two bfc tiles that we can't see yet that don't appear to have trees. Could there be another resource 2N1E of the settler that might strengthen the case for worker first?
     
  15. Inso

    Inso Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2009
    Messages:
    163
    I just posted at the end of #26 how you should do tokug next hehe

    Just finished a game with him myself actually and although he is crap in terms of economic help, drafted rifles are killer with all those free promos. Hope to see them getting some good exercise here. :)

    Coastal starts always irritate me a bit, I'm never sure quite how to time the wb/workboat production for optimum growth. Always seems slower than straight land worker-first start.
     
  16. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    A - you are incalculating fact that 2n1e is most likely FP? [which means one extra coin while growing on worker [which gets worked longer than building workboat]]
    B- saying that chopping beats mines hammer wise is not exactly correct. Trees are not unlimited resource.
     
  17. JensenUVA

    JensenUVA Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    I don't normally post, but I have done a lot of reading on these boards, which has improved my game to the point where I win less than half the time on immortal level. Kossin's inspired me to start getting my hat handed to me at the deity level, so I thought I'd shadow this one and post my progress along the way

    Advice is greatly appreciated, but please remember spoiler tags, I've played a few turns here and I don't want to spoil Kossin's game

    Spoiler :

    Build order was Boat > Worker > Warrior > Warrior > Warrior > Settler > Warrior > Boat (to grow to happy cap) > Settler

    Lost 2 warriors to barbs, so I had to go warrior > settler > warrior > settler from there so as not to lose new cities.

    Tech path: Mining > BW > Ag > AH (no horses nearby...) > Mysticism > Hunt > Arch I mixed in some whips/chops and got an extra boat to make sure I kept capital at happy cap...

    Settled copper first, then gold, then secured the only spot on the map left that hadn't been hemmed in... only able to get 4 cities by about 1000 BC, and then I built a bunch of workers to try to bring them online, Monument > Barracks > Archers in the new cities. Justinian asked for one of my extra clams, I gave it to him, Izzy asked me to stop trading with english... so I cancelled my open borders there (I think that may have been a mistake, Liz won't talk to me and I'd like to trade my clams to her)

    Screen shot 2010-03-10 at 11.40.01 PM.jpg
    Screen shot 2010-03-10 at 11.40.11 PM.jpg
    Screen shot 2010-03-10 at 11.40.30 PM.jpg

    I'd welcome advice on either 1) what to do from here or 2) what I should have done. The Deity AI expands so fast I am not used to being hemmed in so quickly. On immortal I can usually build 3 or 4 archers and then a worker before my settler rush w/o extensive use of chops... not the case here, not sure if that's the map or the difficulty level.

     

    Attached Files:

  18. hexem3117

    hexem3117 Warlord

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    Location:
    Virginia
    I don't know where to go from here, but I would bet you have some strategic resource in your BFC. Don't you start with at least one due to the map generator/balancer? I would bet Iron or Horses
     
  19. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Location:
    Dijon, France
    @Soirana:

    Spoiler :

    OK it's a FP. So:

    1) If Agri=>Mining=>BW and Worker=>Workboat. t15 Worker. t22 cap = 2 pop. Till t25 coin gained = 25.
    2) If Mining=>Bw and Workboat=>Worker. t9 cap=2pop. t13 Workboat. t25 Worker. Till 25 coin gained = 43

    Option 2 seems to have lost 3 turns to gain 18 commerce, but these 3 turns can be covered by earlier chopping so the first settler may be only 1-2 turn than Option 1, if not less.

    About trees, it depends on how we think about them. IMO if we have a lot of forest in BFC like this game, at least half of them are there to be chopped for the first few settlers and workers. So earlier is better.

    Mining is to gain 1 Hpt at the cost of 5 turns of working. Chopping is 20H at the cost of 4 turns. We define 1 turn of working = 5H (chopping: 20/4=5). So Mining won't be superior to chopping during the next 25 turns (1 turn + 20/1 = 25).
    Spoiler :
    Considering the second wb can be rushed by chopping, chopping will give more output from clam, so it may be 27-28 turns something finally.

     
  20. Shurdus

    Shurdus Am I Napoleon?

    Joined:
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    Settle in place
    Welcome to Civfanatics JensenUVA! :beer:
     

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