Dr kossin #33

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by kossin, Apr 15, 2010.

  1. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Welcome to Dr kossin #33.

    Dr is an acronym for Daily Round. Yes, I mean to get in an update every day to the games I will be playing. Of course there might be some days where I can only play a little or not at all, but I will make up for it those other days when I do have extra time on my hands.

    Since the 21st edition of this series, the difficulty level has been cranked all the way up to Deity. I'm not at the point where I can win every game thrown at me on Deity level... I probably can't even win every game thrown at me on Immortal but it is getting a bit boring. My goal is now to achieve competitive skills on this level which should hopefully help me improve more.

    You, the reader, can help me achieve this goal by pointing out where I got astray, give suggestions on how to proceed, use complex abstract mathematical analysis to argue, curse at me or anything that you may like. Please note that you must respect the Terms of Service of CFC in any case :)

    You may shadow this game and post it here if you please, but I kindly request that you put it in spoiler tags and that anyone reading the report abstain from using information found there to help me out.

    Should you want more clarification about something I've done, just ask for it and I will try to answer as best as I can.

    Enough talk, on to the game.

    Dr kossin #33​


    Round 1 Pretty straightforward
    Round 2 REX and Liberalism
    Round 3 Further expansion
    Round 4 Here comes the Cavalry
    Bonus Round!

    Game settings
    Deity
    Normal Speed
    Fractal
    No Events
    No Huts
    BTS 3.19 with BUG 4.3 in CustomAssets and BULL 1.1 mods - >>>Get Them Here<<<
    Everything else is normal.

    The leader, this time, is:


    Please refer to the Mongolia Civ IV wiki for more information on this leader/nation.

    The start:


    I was planning to use one of the maps provided by Moroktonos but I got Daggered and dogpiled early in both of them.

    Instead of just quitting though I went ahead and generated a new map to play this leader out. Hopefully I don't get killed by barbarians or Daggered again because then I'll move on to the next leader.

    Anyway, there is at least 1 flood plain to the south but I'm not too convinced that moving to grab it is going to be worth it. I'll send the scout to investigate the area first and then it can be decided what to do.

    As for tech path, we start with TW (good) and Hunting (perhaps a quick stop to Archery and use HBR as trading chip instead of Aesthetics?) we'll need Agriculture and Animal Husbandry to get started and then either a source of commerce/science or Mining>BW.

    Lots of forests to chop things out and with Imperialistic, this makes cheap settlers so granted enough land I should be able to secure a nice enough piece of land.
     
  2. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    Your starting techs don't match very well with the start here. Agriculture--AH seems reasonable but after that, your worker's probably just going to be building roads for a while because of all those forests.
     
  3. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    The Wheel is almost always a useful starting tech, in my experience. Even though you're slow in getting Bronze Working, the focus should be on using the Worker to get a head start toward developing the tiles in the 2nd city.
     
  4. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

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    Looks like you have an "all-forest" start. This means that any non-forest tiles are resources, and there ought to be four resources. It is hard for me to see for sure, but it appears that only one of the out-of-sight tiles in the starting BFC is unforested. (The one 2E1S.) Since it appears to be a plains, there is a good chance it is marble. (It is marble if plains and if the startsite routine put it there.) That would be nice. The fourth resource would be uranium, which can be under trees.

    It appears the site has been created from a rather nasty plain, perhaps with nicer grasslands to the north. So moving south would tend to make your site into a production site, rather than commerce. Unless there is more floodplain than just one...

    Personally I would SIP hoping that the hidden resource is either marble or horses. But scouting S would definitely help to clarify things.
     
  5. Moroktonos

    Moroktonos Philosopher

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    Sorry about the tough break. I certainly can see how you got daggered on one of the maps (Shaka / Napoleon -- shudder. I probably should have realized, but, knowing your skills, I thought your land might just be nice enough to see you through) but I'm a little surprised about the other one (Willem can sometimes be a bit aggressive, but usually not. I assume off-shore Hannibal jumped in too.). I guess I just don't have enough experience judging early potential AI DOWs on Deity.

    Oh well. Thanks for trying them out! I followed your FDR win and was (as always) very impressed, particularly with your masterful diplomatic skills evidenced by your ability to engineer all of those wars (seriously, you could give Bismark lessons)! Good luck with this attempt, and I'll be following along!
     
  6. raxid

    raxid Warlord

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    Seems to me 2E1N is a unforested grass hill, so that would most likely be, what copper/iron/coal/uranium? Not really sure about how the script works on grass hills...

    Also if that plains 2E1S isn't marble (so its a hidden resource) then it could be either iron or horse?

    In any case only more reasons to SIP in my opinion.
     
  7. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    The starting techs suggest only 1 worker before the settler. Additional workers are likely not going to be required before BW but I could be wrong.

    Agree completely.

    That's a pretty nice analysis!
    Thanks for the heads up, saves me some trouble when I'll start the round.

    Dagger strategy can happen really anytime. For example, DR31 with Hammurabi Grashopa got Daggered by Hatty with War Chariots. It's pretty hard to handle as most of the time you don't even see it coming, and you sure as hell aren't expecting it.
     
  8. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Round 1

    This was a short round, I played through the barb wave.

    First off, I sent the scout south and it got my mouth watery.
    Spoiler :

    Unfortunately that's definitely not a good enough reason to move, but it will handle my early research nicely!
    Strong point for Mining after Ag>AH.


    So I settle in place...
    Spoiler :

    Nothing else shows up for the moment, so we'll have to wait a bit to see what's hidden.


    The scout (whom from now on I'll refer to as 'Scotty') looked around the double-gold site to find more food but discovered the western part looked like a compact peninsula, so I sent him east instead. Karakorum's border pop further proved this as I could decipher some coast to the north.

    Coming from the north east was the first neighbor, on t11.
    Spoiler :


    Scotty met a zealot to the southeast a while later...
    Spoiler :


    And also Bismarck.
    Spoiler :


    Upon completing Animal Husbandry it was revealed that the double-gold spot had horses, so I started on a settler after growing to size 3 (worker>warrior>warrior>settler).
    After improving the cows, my worker didn't have much to do so I had him put roads towards the second city site and I roaded the horses and gold tiles.
    Spoiler :

    Once the city was done, I started improving the horses immediately to be able to build a Chariot from here. Next was a farm on a fp and finally he started on the gold mine which is still under progress.


    Scotty finished his scouting circle and was then posted Southeast of Karakorum in hopes of reducing barbarian spawns. Whenever a barbarian would move within range, I'd move him 1 tile and skip his turn. He's still alive by round's end which earned him his name.

    I sent a warrior to the northeast a bit. There was a barbarian city north, so barbarians could only spawn from west and beyond Scotty's range... good thing too.
    Spoiler :

    Having so much open land with no AI in sight (I have not found AI borders yet!) means quite a few barbs. Luckily, I think I wasn't hit that hard.


    Since Chariots cost 30:hammers:, I didn't have time to wait for one to be produced and instead micro'd Karakorum to get another warrior out in time for the onslaught.
    Spoiler :


    That certainly was a wise decision!
    Spoiler :


    After that however barbarians lost as the odds would have them do and I was okay.


    I stopped once the immediate menace seems over. I'll have a chariot out in 3 turns from Beshbalik so I don't expect much more trouble.

    Scotty will be able to resume his scouting 1 tile at a time and I will push out settlers to claim all the nice land.
    NON-RESIZED overview
    Spoiler :


    While I still need to find the AIs, I'd be quite satisfied by claiming the land I see. No doubt there are some good sites in the fog as well but I think my chances of claiming those won't be so good.

    Techs so far
    Spoiler :


    Bronze Working after Mining to help out on production. I don't have easy access to Copper (soooo much desert!) so perhaps indeed HBR will be the way to go. There's bound to be quite a few barbarian cities to spring up and claiming them will be good for the economy.
    I've queued Mysticism currently to claim the second gold but anything after that is up in the air.
    Alternatives:
    Fishing>Sailing (trade routes)
    Pottery>Writing (commerce)
    Writing (research)

    With 2 gold tiles commerce is less pressing but it's not a bad idea to get even more commerce.
    Getting Sailing would allow to waste minimal turns putting up roads and instead focus on improvements.
    Writing is a bit counter-productive I think as Karakorum is going to be busy building settlers and Beshbalik will be occupied with the gold tiles.
    I should focus my espionage on someone to see if they go early-writing which would reinforce Fishing>Sailing.

    Although with gold, it might just be that Pottery>Fishing>Sailing works well too.


    Finally, diplo standing.
    Spoiler :


    Not much to see here... just the standard bonuses/penalties.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. ifinnem

    ifinnem Keep it interesting

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    Wow I'm amazed how you find the time to churn through all these!
     
  10. Killroyan

    Killroyan Deity

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    That is some nice land you have over there. I can see several very strong cities. And I am expecting iron to show up in the BFC. To bad there is not an AI close. I guess you wouldn't mind a keshik conquered capital :) The barb city in the NE corner is a nice substitute for that though :)

    Keep it coming. Great work. Love the series.
     
  11. Fleme

    Fleme Obey the Kitty!

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    Sweet looking Niles all over the place. Hope you can secure some of that.
     
  12. Zink

    Zink Chieftain

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    That's some nice land! And lots of happy resources. Looks like easy diplo too once you get Isabella's religion.

    Looking forward to updates :)
     
  13. Sleepless

    Sleepless Deity

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    @ Kossin looking forward to this one. Decided to give it a go as I have finished the Just game. I'm up to 1200ish AD.

    Did settle my second city where you did. Not a bad site is it. :) Certainly helped the early tech rate.

    -1200AD


    Spoiler :


    Biz did declare on Isa early and ended up wiping her out. One less person to trade with. I being the brave person I am adopted Biz religion (bud) even though most of my cities had conf from SB. Also gifted a city to Biz. Still think its a bit cheesy and it did have a couple of incense so not that bad. Also right next to Sb borders as well to help them along. :D

    I actually went for Alpha then aesth for trade purposes. Managed to get one tech from Isa before she died but suffering badly with WFYBTA Biz/SB. Traded with worse enemies Brennus. Just managed to trade Mil Trad with Cyrus for pp but well behind him and the final AI Tok. No trades there then. :lol

    Did manage to get to Lib first 800AD. I had 1 turn left when I met Cyrus traded for Optics and managed to get Astro from Lib. Didn't get much for it but at least I'll get some trade routes with Cyrus/Brennus.

    My GP production has been really bad. 2 so far. One for Lib/Philo so I'll have to remedy that. I was planning on attacking SB with Currs whilst he was at war with Biz. As soon as I had Gers/Barracks built in all cities they made peace. So I'm going to try to use cav/bombers on SB if I can ever get there that is. Have to see how that goes.
     
  14. Verarde

    Verarde Pondering Wearing A Hat

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    I don't play deity. I'm just finished my first Warlord and am working on another, but these are always interesting to watch and learn.

    So generally, the first tech you research should depend on your start? I see you started with Ag to get the corn and then AH for the cows, those horses were a nice bonus too, being right next to those 2 Golds. I probably would have done the same thing if I were you, settling in place, although I might have gone with AH first, and then done Ag, or I might have gone opposite. Definitely BW was a must with all those forests. Are you thinking of going for Stonehenge? Or not? Anyway, best of luck!
     
  15. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    If you look at the tech tree, you'll notice white arrows going from technologies to technologies. They show pre-requisites but also a less-known fact: for each tech you know with a white arrow leading to the tech you're learning, you get 20% more research towards that tech.

    Given that this is a commerce poor start until the gold is online, going Agriculture first grants an additional 20% research towards Animal Husbandry. Overall this saved about 1 or 2 turns of research compared to AH>Ag.

    Stonehenge went already I think, turn 27 or something like that.
     
  16. Udey1

    Udey1 Prince

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    I can field this.

    Yes the research here was dependent on the immediate resources.

    AH was researched after agriculture because agriculture is a cheaper tech and provides a research bonus to AH if it is researched first.

    My guess is Kossin delayed BW in order to improve local resources better. Idle worker turns are the last thing you want at the beginning of a game.


    On Deity Stonehenge is usually a laugh. Myself have NEVER EVEN ONCE tried for it on Deity. Course I think it is a silly thing to work on anyways.

    edit Beaten to my punch.
     
  17. Verarde

    Verarde Pondering Wearing A Hat

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    Thanks.
     
  18. CHEESE!

    CHEESE! On a long nostalgia trip

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    I am incredibly confused by all avatar changes. Thankfully, mine ain't gonna change for a looong time.

    As for the game- :eekdance: I have turned off barbs in my game (to me they are an unfun annoyance, and I get plenty of war from the AIs) , and I occasionally try deity. Seems I have been playing 1/2 deity.
     
  19. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Avatar: it seemed fitting now that SGOTM 11 is only a week away! Also the last time I played Hatty is Daily Round 1 :S

    ~~~

    EDIT: I'm pretty burned down tonight from yard work, spamming Emperor games and just now a SG game (that was supposed to be more casual... grumble....) so round 2 is pushed back to tomorrow.
     
  20. Sleepless

    Sleepless Deity

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    Retired 1868AD so didn't really lose. ;)

    Spoiler :


    Back to 1200AD I loaded up my game and tried to see how I could win. My big problem was the lack of trade opportunities, So with access to 3 religions in my cities I decided to try a cultural victory. Not something I do very often. :)

    Spammed/whipped missionaries/temples to get access to 3 cathederals, changed civics to Rep/FS/Caste/FM/FR would have preferred pacifism but wanted to avoid being attacked.

    Not long after I managed to get a defensive pact with Cyrus and a pleased Biz kept me safe. Perhaps I should have changed then.

    I made a big mistake of heading for Assembly Line instead of bio (for extra specs) not sure if I would have got there going that route but I certainly failed the other way. :lol:

    So Biz ended up launching his ship 1868 with my 3 cities each having about 15 turns left before going legendary.

    Something to consider for me anyway for the future. If I had decided earlier would have won easily as long as I wasn't attacked. -4 with Biz for close borders at the end. :)

     

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